Would this be career suicide?

[CarinaMarina]

Is it a terrible idea to join a company with a generally poor reputation, even as part of a "fix it" or rescue team?

It has plenty of capital, plenty of backing, and tons of scope to develop and expand - but it has such an unfashionable and vilified business proposition, that even though it is highly profitable and will continue to be, it has a bad reputation in the industry (one which is, very luckily, unaffected by Covid as all comms and sales can be done remotely and will be for the foreseeable).

The bosses at my current firm will either fall about laughing or tell me I'm making a huge mistake if I tell them I'm going there. Part of the role will, however, be about adapting the proposition and turning it all around - at least they are committed to change.

Not sure if it's common sense or my ego making me hesitate. I do realise I am very fortunate to be in this position when so many people are suffering from the effects of the pandemic on jobs, that fact is not lost on me. I am lucky to be in a sector which can continue virtually as normal, thanks to technology.

A modest concession on the number plus an explanation as to how you're accepting below market rate and have an insight into the business that no-one external can provide should do the trick.

Can you ask for a performance related bonus or shares in exchange for the lower upfront? Or build in pension contributions on top?

When I have been unsure about a job (Freelance so a bit different) I used to quite a really high rate. That way if they did go for it I was being well paid enough to overcome and doubts .
Appreciate it’s different I am employed role though or when you have to consider your career

Still think they sound like untrustworthy chancers.

OP they seem to have made it clear they intend to try and do this on the cheap. If they are laughing at the idea of a below market rate salary for you, do you really think you’re going to get the budget to do the job successfully?

Hmm, so torn. They might meet me halfway, which I'm fine with (I was pushing my luck to be fair, for a couple of reasons I won't bore you with but I might have got market rate at a household name plc, not a small local firm like this one).

I had a couple of calls with them today (I already do contract work for them) - they were hellish, challenging, frustrating, and complex. Tested all my skills. I LOVED it.

On the other hand, they might still just be arseholes...

I’d really think carefully: if they are indeed arseholes you are going to lose all of your protections as an employee. Can you handle two years of uncertainty?

I may be biased as did something similar and regretted it - but that was when the economy was fine and actually it lead to me starting my own business which is great.

I had a couple of calls with them today (I already do contract work for them) - they were hellish, challenging, frustrating, and complex. Tested all my skills. I LOVED it.

This sounds a bit rose-tinted glasses to me. I like a challenge and to sort things out but Christ, I don’t want every day to be a fight.

I might be biased because your non-description of the business model has aroused my suspicions, but I think it sounds awful.

Oh God, you might be right Goat. I'm so desperate to feel valued and needed that I'm willing to put a positive slant on anything - I'm seeing what I want to see aren't I. No, I don't want a fight every day either, and they are all a bit prickly with one another which I've already mentioned is a red flag to the person who recommended me.

But you could say the same thing about where I work now, everyone slags one another off behind their backs and argues on calls. I'm just not really part of it, as my opinion counts for little around here.

My boss complimented me today - on "how well set out" a report was with only a few "minor amendments". What a joke, not that many years ago I was running a team bigger than the one he is now, I got lumped in with him because my original firm got absorbed. Now I'm worthless and being congratulated for writing a simple report.

I haven’t RTFT

I would only join based on following parameters:

• how high up is the change mandate from?
• how empowered will you be to make the changes?
• what is the culture? What are the people like who you will be working with?

The turning around a company with a bad reputation wouldn’t daunt me. But I’d want to know that I could affect change and not be in a toxic environment where everyone is trying to thwart me because they’re threatended

CTO roles nowadays require cybersecurity governance experience but because a lot of people don’t have that yet companies are willing to take the risk on people they know who could learn. Add that to the fact that the new company has a shitty reputation means an existing employee or contractor is pretty much the only option.

If I were you I’d keep negotiating. What’s their alternative? If their rep is as bad as you made them out to be then they won’t be able to quickly find a new candidate.

Ah man, now they're asking what salary I'd take.
If you are still thinking about the job, don't get too hung up on just salary. Think about the whole package eg pension contributions, notice period, flexibility / freedom on hours (you mentioned earlier), job description and agreed action points (in writing!), budget / resources available (will they walk the walk to back up the talk), etc.

Avoid analogies when describing what you do, OP. Somebody will always take them literally.

(I say take the job. New challenge, etc)

There certainly needs to be a longer discussion about all the other aspects like benefits and flexibility etc, if I get that far. They've got big plans, if we get the fundamentals right I see no reason why they couldn't expand very effectively. It would be great challenge, and best of all I know I am capable of this job. Even if I used it purely to get that experience on my CV.

Haha yes I noticed that Wombat!

In truth I'm waiting to hear about another one that I went through 3 interviews for - much better company always having glossy articles written about them in the industry press, roughly the same money, much riskier and more complex role which intimidates me slightly - which is exactly why I probably won't get it anyway.

I have two drivers, one to get away from where I am (bored and under utilised), another to take a step up and get the next level of experience on my CV to get me to C level.

My comment was to suggest that this job isn't for you and you should keep looking. My instincts have been right every time I've taken on a client or a new job and I wasn't wholly convinced.

Sounds like you've got another iron in the fire. What's the timing look like?

I appreciate your need for stimulation, growth, recognition and challenge but maybe you have to wait a little bit longer.

Thanks Jamie. There is part of me screaming that there are many reasons to swerve this one...but another part confidently whispering that it'll be a tough couple of years, but I need it on my CV if anyone is going to take me seriously ever again.

The other iron in the fire has mysteriously cooled...I was promised a decision last Friday but it didn't come, although the company has previously acted quite quickly. The recruitment agency seems to think that new lockdown restrictions might mean they have new factors to consider but I don't see how. This industry is unaffected by covid, income streams will barely see a dent and everyone can work from home.

So every day I'm waiting for a call but haven't heard yet. Maybe they are putting the decision on hold, maybe they want to see more candidates, who knows. But they brought in a 3rd wildcard just as it had got down to me and one other, so I have a nasty feeling the 3rd wildcard will be a dead cert.

I missed out on a similar one a few months ago (was B-level but for an excellent firm - apparently my technical knowledge was way more advanced than they anticipated for the role at that stage ) so I'm feeling frustrated which might tip me into making a rash decision.

For me, this would be a no-brainer. It’s an opportunity to take your first C level role. They don’t come along every day, and my experience (in finance, so maybe not directly comparable) is that the leading businesses want somebody who has already worked at that level.

So if you want to step up you either have to take over from an outgoing director at your current business or move to a younger or less prestigious business to get your start. The advantage of that is that you can make your mark. Take it!

A tough couple of years. That’s a long time to be miserable.

Sounds like whatever happens with this job you are ready for a new challenge. I'm lower down the ranks than you but in my experience salary negotiation is an expected part of the process for filling senior roles and not necessarily a red flag in and of itself.

I went to a "women in leadership" conference a couple of years ago and something one of the speakers said that stuck with me was that if you wanted to get to C-suite you should grab the first C level role that comes along with both hands (I guess for reasons like those Iamwombat suggests, and once you are operating at that level its easier to move around at that level).

You mentioned the bad reputation was only known among a handful of companies - how embedded in that handful of companies is your career?

FWIW on the other company in the mix - I also work somewhere relatively unscathed by covid, where everyone can wfh, no change to 2020 income, and the lockdown has thrown lots of concerns into the mix - most notably significant morale issues which have led to extended periods of staff absence, and a revisiting of risks and costs for 2021 and beyond as we potentially go into a global recession.

How would a man deal with this? How would a C-suite deal with this?

Would they sit around ("So every day I'm waiting for a call but haven't heard yet") or would they make things happen? Can you tell the "cooling iron" about this offer; it might buck their ideas up and make them wonder about what is about to pass them by. If you fear that the position might be offered to the wildcard anyway then you haven't lost much by forcing their hand.
What would impress the recruitment agency and make them put you top of the list of headhunted / applicants for the next job?

How would a man deal with this? How would a C-suite deal with this?

Precisely!

OP, I don’t know whether you have ever watched Motherland (BBC comedy), but one of the episodes tackles a not dissimilar situation. One of the characters, a mother of two small children, is offered a promotion and asks another female character, who is a successful senior business leader, what she should do.

Her response is unequivocal: take it, because a man wouldn’t think twice, and if you don’t you might end up in career no man’s land. Why is it called that? Because there are no men there!

Without knowing the exact company it is hard to give a definite answer.

But generally if you start of a project on the ground floor, there is massive potential to go forward.

Where as if you get on at the middle, or near the top there is nowhere for you to really go/grow and you will just tred water.

The bosses at my current firm will either fall about laughing or tell me I'm making a huge mistake if I tell them I'm going there.
These are the same stick-in-the-muds who are stalling your career? As a matter of interest, how do you think they will react; would they suddenly realise that you are unhappy and find a new position for you?
The person they've appointed to a new operations role is the person I know, they are very senior and recommended me.
You complain about the wildcard at the other job being a shoo-in yet when you are the shoo-in you get nervous. Your mate, the new COO, has a vested interest in making sure that her recommendation (you!) delivers the goods.
I don't think the working culture would be bad - they don't have high turnover of staff and the small number of employees dote on the CEO. I think it would be an interesting challenge
You have done consultancy so you know the firm well which helps a great deal. It's not a leap in the dark like other jobs could be.
there is a collective eye-roll at the mention of this firm's name because they are so set in their ways and have some weird ideas.
CEO has already started down the line of change, by appointing COO. I presume you know how to persuade a man to adopt your ideas - you just make him think that they were his! (wish I was joking )
If all the consultancies have tried to implement change but failed then why would it be "career suicide" if you did the same? If things don't pan out within a few years then look for a new job, muttering "you know what he's like / broken promises" and move the conversation swiftly on to your other 20-odd years' of experience.

I'm nodding away at the comments about grabbing the opportunity to go C-level while it's there - even if the company isn't terribly prestigious. And my career is unaffected by the small number of companies that look sideways at them - no-one else knows them from Adam, it's mostly my current firm that is most disparaging. And they are hardly big 4 themselves.

I've chased the agency for the other role once, they're pretty sharp so if they say they haven't heard, they haven't heard. I intend to let them know I've got something else in the pipeline, but I don't want to give the impression that I'm playing games (or will play one off against the other).

How will my current firm react if I say I'm going there? Their attitude is that no-one is irreplaceable, I'd love to think that they'll express sincere regret that they've broken all their promises and beg me to stay, but the truth is they won't. They'll shrug, wish me well then laugh at me behind my back for going to this firm and say I won't last 5 minutes.

Unfortunately I lost my cool this afternoon and said in an email to my boss that the way he had set something out in an internal document made me look incompetent (he keeps putting my initials against tasks and adding "his initials to lead" like I'm some kind of trainee). It was said in passing in a brief line, I didn't make a big ranty deal out of it (e.g typo in para 1, change the title in section 2, list of tasks with you "overseeing" on page 4 makes me look scarcely competent).

I regret it a bit now, but I've just had enough of it all. I've got 20 years experience and it makes me feel undermined, like he's showboating. He'll go all reverse on me now and drop me on my arse so he can say I thought you could handle it. Sigh.

I have guessed what you do and the firm you work at, but don’t worry, I will keep it to myself.

Take the new job!

You only have to make the decision once you've negotiated a package that's satisfactory enough for you to accept.

Having thought about it a bit more and re-reading your comments and others too, I suggest not closing the door just yet. One poster said it's hard to get your first c-level role and she's right. If you know it's going to be a wild but satisfying (and potentially hugely career building) ride then it definitely has a lot going for it.

Not much help, am I?! My arse is hurting from sitting on the fence!