#closetheschools is trending

[Allthestarsarecloser]

I work at a university on the front line seeing students 1-1 (I work in student support) and have continued to see students this term at a distance & with measures in place. ALL the students I have seen have been grateful for the human contact.

I also have 2 kids in primary and secondary. I want them to stay in school as my eldest had to have counselling after the last lockdown.

Aibu to say that schools need to stay open and I say that as someone on the front line.

YABU - they should shut
YANBU- they need to stay open

I think it is ridiculous.

I am a teacher in a college. If schools close, people will expect their kids to be taught properly via zoom/teams etc.

My own kids are 5 & 8. How do I support them being taught whilst teaching other people too?

'I work in a university on the front line seeing students'

What a ridiculous use of the phrase 'front line'. Our society is full of this over-dramatisation of our small lives. God knows how some of us would have coped in a war where we really had to face a front line or really suffered deprivations.

Just get on with your job chatting to students, sitting in a comfortable office with the heating on. Stop creating dramas.

I think if cases don’t start coming down then secondaries need to shut but primaries stay open

@Rubyroost my job is called ‘frontline services’ at my uni so for the purposes of where I work, I am on the frontline. Why do people come on here just to have a go at other people’s use of language? That’s the terminology my uni uses FFS- there are thousands of staff at my uni that are working from home and not having to see any students

OP, I don't think it's the fact that you used the term "frontline" so much as the fact that you suggested that your level of exposure is comparable to that of a teacher in a primary or secondary school teacher. I don't think you can claim this.

@baxterstockman

The people dying of coronavirus are overwhelmingly over 65. Where are they catching it from? Care homes and hospitals to an extent, but probably from mixing with friends and family members. Why is this age group not being told to self isolate until they can be vaccinated? Let the rest of us get on with school, work, running businesses etc.

Lockdown was hugely damaging to lots of children and utter crap for the rest. I will be furious if they close schools again. We are in a high risk area and there have been a number of cases at both my children's schools. It has not spread like wildfire, cases have been isolated, appropriate measures have been taken, children have been sent home and I don't know of any cases where self isolating children or their family have then developed it.

Define "overwhelmingly". A significant proportion of deaths and hospitalisations have been in those between 50 and 65. Some of those people will be teachers and healthcare professionals. How are we going to "get on" with things without them?

I genuinely don't think any scientist is arguing for shutting down childcare , EY , or primary. And, yet, the argument always comes back to that on MN.

OP, your use of frontline was utterly disingenuous, tbh, and you are now back pedalling. You also are not helping by saying that 100s of uni staff are WFH. Lucky them. School staff -and all genuine frontline workers- aren't afforded that opportunity.

On a purely selfish personal level I need the schools to be open. Trying to home educate my 6 year old during his recent self isolation (6 hours work given per day, online lessons with compulsory attendance, 2 written pieces of work photographed per day!) and do my job at the same time was impossible. Dh can't really work from home so either his work will reduce like last lock down so can sit with ds or he'll be out and it'll all be on me. If this is the case ds will get very minimal education.
By June when he returned to school I was extremely worried about ds who was regressing massively with toddler style tantrums and extremely clingy and tearful. I don't want to put him through that again.
As far as school transmission goes- recently there was an "outbreak" at ds's school- 5 bubbles closed due to positive tests. When it was looked into, all cases came where there had been a positive test in the child's family before the child, there were no further positive cases that arose in isolating children during isolation. Anecdotal and one school only, but suggests that transmission was within communities and families and did not spread within school.

@Belladonna12

At my university, it was hotspot a few weeks ago and went into tier 3. Everyone caught it, isolated for a few weeks and now no ones catching it again. We have lower rates in our city that teir 1 places now

Yes, I think that has happened in a lot of places. It's interesting that it is not picked up by the media and that everyone seems to think universities are worse than schools transmission when in fact they are a lot safer.

And this is surely a good thing? And yet it is portrayed as not a good thing. If loads of students catch it, isolate and are now immune (at least for 6 months ) then that all helps. Valance back in March said 60% of the population would need to catch this and would eventually catch it so isn’t it a good thing that it is asymptomatic students? I never hear this side of the argument. Unis that had outbreaks back in Sep are presumably in a better place now for the rest of the year. It would seem madness to close them to me

Eg a uni librarian breathed on by hundreds of students a day, aren’t they at risk as much as teachers? I don’t get why they wouldn’t be?

Or if you are a counsellor or pastoral tutor at uni? Again getting breathed on a lot. Why wouldn’t you be at risk?

@rawlikesushi

I work in a school and we have very strict measures in place.

Despite this, parents congregate to chat at drop-off, attempt to come into the classroom to talk to me, pick up children from other bubbles for play dates, arrange parties and sleepovers, car share and walk home in big groups.

I think that, for some, 'going back to school' meant 'back to normal'. Perhaps the full lockdown will just sharpen people's minds a bit and it will have a suppressing impact on socialising before/after school.

I don't rule out it becoming necessary to close schools again but I do think they should be the very last places to close, and that we have to try everything else first.

Universities are another matter. You only have to look at where the hot spots were to see that. Most students are now being taught entirely remotely. Close the universities and refund accommodation.

Exactly the same at our school, the head keeps emailing to ask parents not to stop and chat to each other while going through the one way system for drop off and pick up. Then she had to get the deputy head to stand there and police people. Mums still stand in groups chatting before and after they've gone through the one way though (I don't really see any dads that do this so that's why I'm saying mums). Hardly any wear masks, maybe because it's outside they don't feel the need I suppose. They still stand right up close chatting and laughing for 10-15 minutes while waiting to go in or after dropping the kids off. Then again at pick up and afterwards. There's hardly anyone who bothers to social distance or stand a metre apart, even in the queue for the one way systems.

Groups of mums stand on the school drive and pavements around the school gates / nearby residential roads having a chat, well most have definitely been going over the rule of 6 and gathering. Say on average there's 3-4 adults, with 1-2 kids each, usually at least 8 people gathering and I wonder if they think children don't count in the rule of 6? The kids standing with the mums chat and start playing together and are then mixing with different class bubbles, lots of people have play dates and birthdays with kids from different bubbles though, it's just seen as a non issue. Given the hard work the school has done to keep the kids strictly in their bubbles and nowhere near kids from other bubbles, staggering lunch, play times, using separate play grounds on rotas etc, it seems like a complete waste of their time and effort. The head sends out these emails asking parents to help keep everyone socially distracted at drop off and pick up times, be mindful of the rule of 6 and not mixing with children outside their bubble unless it's their sibling obviously, Do people give a toss? Not many. Over 700 children, it's a large primary but infants are on the site next door. Both sites share the entrance from the road outside and the school drive, plus the area directly outside the two main buildings that sit next door to each other. The head keeps trying to get people to stop congregating inside and outside the entrance areas, but it hasn't made any difference unfortunately. So yeah, not entirely helpful

@AlexaShutUp

Also, the coronavirus pandemic affects the elderly and appropriate measures are being taken. But the suicide epidemic is affecting the young (and more are dying of it that coronavirus!!!) so appropriate measures need to be taken for that too.

I have seen a lot of comments about a suicide epidemic, but the data that I have seen does not back this up. Can you provide a link, please?

It’s an ongoing situation so there won’t be any reputable studies or evidence more me to provide you with as all the current data is for 2019.

However, unlike for coronavirus - you don’t have to turn on the news to see evidence of it. Every day on social media I see tributes to new people who have committed suicide, and that’s just from people I know too.
A close friend works for a suicide charity and their calls increased x6 during lockdown

@baxterstockman

The people dying of coronavirus are overwhelmingly over 65. Where are they catching it from? Care homes and hospitals to an extent, but probably from mixing with friends and family members. Why is this age group not being told to self isolate until they can be vaccinated? Let the rest of us get on with school, work, running businesses etc.

Lockdown was hugely damaging to lots of children and utter crap for the rest. I will be furious if they close schools again. We are in a high risk area and there have been a number of cases at both my children's schools. It has not spread like wildfire, cases have been isolated, appropriate measures have been taken, children have been sent home and I don't know of any cases where self isolating children or their family have then developed it.

Because you can isolate one part of society effectively. There will always be those in their families that live with them, carers, people that serve them in shops etc that need to have a low enough rate for them to interact with Services wouldn't be able to cope with the staffing impacts (Even if we said the only risk factor was age, and ignored that there are high numbers of people that are clinically vulnerable themselves or live with family members that are vulnerable)

For example approximately 30,000 doctors in this country are over 60.

In my community health team if we took out all the staff over 60, who live with over 60s, who are clinically vulnerable or live with those shielding the we wouldnt be able to provide our service. None of our 8 doctors would be able to come in, and of our 15 nurses only 9 would be.

Taking into account the impact of staff that need to isolate due to positive cases at their kids schools and the constant pull to cover other teams (who have the same difficulties with isolating staff, staff being vulnerable).

We are one of the teams that people keep saying needs to function (mental health) but even without actually having to deal with covid cases and somehow staffing the covid wards, our team would close

26% of infections occur in education settings.

3% occur in restaurants, leisure and retail.

There is no point having a lockdown and keeping schools open.

They need to do something about schools.
I do support school closures, but I do see the impact on working parents and vulnerable kids.

Although we need to remember that kids are getting disrupted education anyway at the drop of a hat when there's a case in their bubble and that's harder to plan for.

There are other things they can do before full school closures if they had the political will.
They could remove the threat of fines so that those who want to, and are in a position to, could home educate temporarily. Fewer numbers in school would increase the ability to social distance and reduce risks for everyone.

They could put secondary schools only on blended learning or distance learning - I saw a report that infections in secondary age kids had multiplied by 50 times since the start of September. Older kids can generally cope better with online learning and don't need the levels of supervision that younger ones do, so it wouldn't be as big a burden on working parents (I know this isn't the case for everyone and I am generalising, but also working on the assumption that vulnerable and key worker kids will continue to be offered places as they were last time).

For secondary kids, they could encourage mask wearing and teach them mask hygiene for those happy to wear masks. I get that enforcing mask wearing has its limitations too.

Teachers could wear visors - They could do daily temperature checks - etc.

But ultimately, I fear that if we've got a lockdown, but kids are still mixing in schools with no social distancing, we will be missing an opportunity to get the levels right down. And that all the pain and worry and heartache of the lockdown will be for nothing because it's still spreading in schools. I feel for the school staff too who are having to work without PPE and social distancing. I don't think it's fair on them. So on balance I would like to see schools close. But ultimately any compromise that makes schools safer I will welcome.

@Onceuponatimethen

Eg a uni librarian breathed on by hundreds of students a day, aren’t they at risk as much as teachers? I don’t get why they wouldn’t be?

Or if you are a counsellor or pastoral tutor at uni? Again getting breathed on a lot. Why wouldn’t you be at risk?

Wait I’m confused, why do you think uni students are breathing on their librarians ???

They sit behind a screen, you stand 2 metres back and both wear a mask

If schools had open fully back in June after may half term like they were asked to/ supposed to, people may have higher trust in them now. The unions and the Labour Party are to blame that this didn’t happen

The Tory government did this. No-one else.

The unions will try to every truck in the book to keep schools closed if they can

The. unions. cannot. close. schools.
Simple enough for you?

@AlexaShutUp I haven’t claimed that AT ALL ffs- as it goes, universities have seen higher infection rates than schools. My union has been saying all along that it should all be online. I taught in a lecture theatre with 50 students last week. People just read a thread and then make up what they want about the OP

Andrew Marr was just talking about schools with Starmer and Gove. He was pushing Gove quite hard.

As a parent and member of school staff, keep them open. Offer us regular tests like NHS staff, and make better provision for online learning for those needing to shield or self isolate.

universities have seen higher infection rates than schools

No, they haven't. they have had mass testing. ONS survey says rates in older secondary students are steeply rising.

@Derelictwreck

26% of infections occur in education settings.

3% occur in restaurants, leisure and retail.

There is no point having a lockdown and keeping schools open.

You mean 3% of cases have been traced back to restaurants leisure retail. The track and tracing has been poor and the real figure is likely to be much much higher.

They must keep schools open.

My daughter only has one hour a week of face to face contact in her university course - all the rest of the lectures etc... are online already. Universities are already basically 'closed' to 'normal' instruction anyway - best to keep them open and giving the students what they already have set up.

Schools are potentially a different matter - no-one wants to go back to 'lockdown learning' but the fact is that they are a place where lots of households and people who have been in contact with others on public transport etc.. are meeting for extended periods in enclosed spaces. It is difficult to see how this 'national lockdown' will be effective if schools are an exception (along with all the other exceptions this time.) Not to mention that there are already lots of children having to self-isolate who are already missing their education at random times for 14 days at a time.

UK needs to implement mask-wearing for all, not just in school corridors or shops/public transport, but whenever you leave the house. Look to the strict measures implemented in all countries who have successfully dealt with the virus and try those, including enforced quarantine upon arrival in the UK. There are no real consequences for anyone who breaks the guidelines. Short-term pain for long-term gain... with the current lack of joined-up thinking and 'bitty' measures it is only setting us up for months (if not years) of repeated easing/implementing of lockdown measure.

It seems to me that unless the national lockdown is done fully and radically, the current guidelines only serve to further disadvantage those in the hospitality/theatre industries without having any real effect on the cases of Covid.

#keepthemopen

I swear people just come into mumsnet to scream at other people about their words, language etc rather than just debating the actual question 🙄