to not understand why so many people are against adoption?

[Confusedamonium]

Before deciding to adopt, I'd never really been aware of this but it appears that a huge chunk of society are really, really against adoption - and I just don't understand why.

• SIL thinks children should be in foster care in case their parents change their minds or change their behaviour. She thinks permanently removing a child (no matter how much support has been offered or how long/severe the problems are) is unfair on the biological parents.
• DM thinks that no one can love an adopted child as much as a biological child - despite what we tell her.

People make comments about how cruel it is that children are taken from their parents (to both the children and the parents). Can anyone actually explain why they think it's better that children either float around foster placements or remain in abusive homes? What really shocks me is that foster carers are perceived as saintly carers for innocent souls and adopters are perceived as evil child snatchers. My parents foster and get no end of praise for it but one mention of adoption and people turn frosty.

I’m saying it’s not always the right thing to do and SS can be too quick to take that decision imo.

Too quick? How long would you like a child to be abused and neglected for before they’re protected?

Also, if you’re not a bored kid on halfterm you need reporting to the lead DSL.

Yes sometimes SS and family courts get it wrong. So children remain in homes where they shouldn,t or taken away when they shouldn,t. It happens both ways. Sometimes the courts support the families not the SS. Mistakes happen and families and lives are distroyed.

There's so much misinformation about adoption, much of which is evident on this thread. OP sorry to hear that your family aren't supportive that must make life unpleasant.

For us adoption has been a wonderful experience. We adopted DS as a 1 year old, his birth mother was given lots of support by SS to make it work but was not able to make the right choices and parent safely. She was also given support after adoption so that she would be in a better place in the future but she withdrew from the programme. She was the kind of person that people who don't like SS would say had unfairly taken her child.

Five years later we have adopted DD who shares the same birth mother. She is now with to someone who is a danger to children and will never be allowed to keep one (and grew up in an environment where abuse was normal in the family). We adopted through Foster to Adopt and the plan was that DS would come to us when discharged from hospital. She told the court that she had left him and got a mother and baby Foster placement. SS were certain it would fail but not how long it would take to fail. After a couple of days she withdrew leaving DD behind and DD came to us.

Seeing who she is now with I am sure that DS who is a caring, charming, happy little boy would have been abused and would have had a miserable life. We really that birth mother sorts her life out and meets someone who could help her be the parent she wants to be.

Pre covid DD and I went to an adoption playgroup and several people their adopted their children through Foster to Adopt. As the adopters it's more stressful than straight forward adoption but the end result is much better for the child being adopted.

Pre covid DD and I went to an adoption playgroup and several people their adopted their children through Foster to Adopt. As the adopters it's more stressful than straight forward adoption but the end result is much better for the child being adopted.

Research tells is it should be better but the reality is it’s a fairly new process in adoption terms and we won’t know the end results for many years - the end result being a happy, healthy adult able to take their place in society.

For me that’s the difficulty in adoption practice, you’re planting seeds now that you hope will come to fruition years down the line - it’s hard to tell the end from the beginning and there are lots of variables along the way.

We can only do the best we can with what we have at the time.

I think it’s because many children and even toddlers in foster care have experienced awful trauma and adoptive parents may struggle with the behaviour issues resulting from this.

Also if people have one biological child they may fear they couldn’t love an adopted child as much? And biological child might struggle to accept an adopted sibling? If you go through pregnancy and your first child sees your bump and meets sibling as a newborn it may be easier for them to accept? And a lot of kids (mine included) want a sibling who ‘looks like me’ so that could cause issues.

Then there’s the long and difficult adoption process to contend with.

SchrodingersBox, but how much support can realistically have been put in place if the child came to you at a year old?

I’m not in any way being contentious so please don’t take it as such. It probably is best that way, but I’m just not convinced that everything possible could have been done in the timeframe you describe.

@SchrodingersBox

Your adoption experience is very similar to ours, and the birth mum sounds very similar to our DDs' birth mum. I feel for her, as I said before, because of her life experience, but I also feel exasperated that she goes on having children that she can't look after.

We've bonded really well with our DDs, despite the challenging behaviour from DD1. She gets very angry, but more about her disabilities, she has hearing and sight impairment as a result of a head injury in foster care, and wears hearing aids and glasses.

My DSis and BIL have also adopted, but they have two bio DC together and my BIL has an adult DS from his first marriage (my DSis was his main carer through his teens).

Their adopted DS (my godson) was a relinquished baby, whose existence his birth mum kept entirely secret from her whole family including his bio siblings. She without doubt had her reasons, as she's a loving mum to her other DC, and it wasn't a decision taken lightly. But obviously it's a real rejection for a now five year old boy to process.

@Ahorsecalledseptember

the issue here is how long can you expect a baby to wait to be fed, kept warm, have a regular nappy change?
Like my son was, many children are identified as being at risk before birth and support arrangements already in place when they are born.
Before the age of 4 my son had lived with relatives, mother and baby units, hostels, with a drug dealer, 2 temporary foster placements. His birth mum didn’t engage with social services.
Was it fair to him to make him wait for four years for some semblance of normality and stability.
How long do you think its fair to make a child wait - because surely that is the priority - the safety and well being of the child.

@Ahorsecalledseptember

Our DDs also came to us at one year old, after a year in foster care.

They don't want to leave children too long in foster care, as the later they're placed, the harder it is for them to bond with their adoptive parents.

I know that their birth mum had a few contact visits with DD1, but none with DD2 (though she did show up at the final hearing, making it necessary to delay the process for three weeks). When she had her fourth child, a DS, SS did consider a mother and baby placement, which didn't happen in the end, but she had much more contact with her DS. It was a Foster to Adopt placement, and he ended up being adopted.

She also pretended to split up from her partner, but she was never serious about that. It's a very dysfunctional relationship on both sides, but they're also very dependent on each other.

(We did explore the possibility of adopting him, but we had too much on with the two DDs we already had.)

SchrodingersBox, but how much support can realistically have been put in place if the child came to you at a year old?

Quite a lot can be done pre-birth which gives a good indication of how well parents will be able to put their child’s needs first. The reality is new babies are very very vulnerable and if mum isn’t able to act protectively in her life style, her relationships, her care for her baby they’ll quite quickly act to keep the baby safe especially if there have been other children or other issues to consider.

@Ahorsecalledseptember

SchrodingersBox, but how much support can realistically have been put in place if the child came to you at a year old?

I’m not in any way being contentious so please don’t take it as such. It probably is best that way, but I’m just not convinced that everything possible could have been done in the timeframe you describe.

How much neglect and or abuse do you want a baby to experience before they are a year old?

But ted that’s why I said I wasn’t being contentious. I understand that and I’m not arguing that the PPs baby should have stayed any longer than he did with his birth parents. I’m just thinking out loud, really. There is a limit as to how much support can reasonably be provided and besides, unless someone wants to change support is meaningless.

It’s so difficult.

jelly

I quite clearly say in my post it probably is best that way simon

Pointing out the support on offer isn’t always amazing is not the same as saying a baby or child should stay with birth parents who can’t or won’t put his needs first.

The reality is support for all parents is rarely superb @Ahorsecalledseptember - there have been steady cuts zeroing social work and social care with a lot of direct support being passed to the third sector, which has its pros and cons. There’s also huge levels of judgement placed on parents who struggle (often by professionals who frankly should know better) and a lot of stigma for parents to overcome. We forget that traumatised children grow into traumatised adults with all the mental health, substance misuse, compromised executive functioning that entails.

The early intervention agenda is good and worthwhile but leaves a population struggling because they don’t fit an early intervention model and the resources for acute trauma informed services are patchy and poor.

So, yes too many birth parents are given too many chances, and children get hurt, also yes the supports offered may be the wrong thing at the wrong time so parents struggle to engage or affect change. And yes, some adoptive parents are ill equipped to cope with the challenges that come with even the most straightforward adoption.

It’s a hugely imperfect system.

As adoptive parents, you need an element of hope. Hope that for your child intervention care soon enough, hope that your parenting will be good enough for the child you’ve come to love deeply and hope that ultimately you’ll all come through the other side. Which makes it very hard to hear folk suggest adoption isn’t a good/best option for children, because you’re parenting those little, hurt souls to the very best of your ability and trusting the decisions that were made to remove them and the decisions you make along the way are enough.

@Jellycatspyjamas Your entire post was brilliant.
As adoptive parents, you need an element of hope. Hope that for your child intervention care soon enough, hope that your parenting will be good enough for the child you’ve come to love deeply and hope that ultimately you’ll all come through the other side. Which makes it very hard to hear folk suggest adoption isn’t a good/best option for children, because you’re parenting those little, hurt souls to the very best of your ability and trusting the decisions that were made to remove them and the decisions you make along the way are enough
This part brought tears to my eyes. With the love care and courage shown by adopters on this thread these children have been saved, they're safe, they're loved.
It is understandable to hear the love is a stronger bond than a bio DC the want to prevent and protect your DC from harm ever again must be overwhelming.
No one wants their DC to be hurt but when they have been hurt it would take all your heart to help them recover.
The SS system can be chaotic but adopters are the saviours.

We adopted our two when their mother died. Father had never been in the picture. I don't really recognise what you say you've experienced, but guess it's a bit different as they were our niece and nephew.

In general I think that people who adopt tend to go into it with more of an idea of what parenthood means than a lot of people who do it the normal way. Every part of your life is under scrutiny. You have to be as close to perfect as possible because you are taking on a child(REN) who have often had a lot of trauma in their lives. It's tough and intense and certainly not the easy option.

@Ahorsecalledseptember The support started during pregnancy, DS and birth mother went straight to a mother and baby placement from the hospital. That didn't work and she had a further 2 goes at mother and baby placements.

@Jellycatspyjamas That's the case with many changes in the adoption process, if the ultimate proof of a change is a well rounded adult who was adopted as a child then there is lag of many years to see it. Our Local Authority is very good and between our first and second adoption merged with 3 others to make a larger group. The theory is that it will make things work better but it did require a bit of a leap of faith. Our approval and matching panels were both in different local authorities which meant there was less delay than there would have been pre merger. From our experience of Foster to Adopt DD didn't go through the trauma of moving out of one home to another that DS did.

Btw I love my adopted children more than my biological mother loved me.

Difficult to read this thread. I am an adopted child from the sixties when there was shame about being an unmarried mum. But my birth mother had another child 18 months after me then another and kept both. She refuses any communication with me even relating to my dad. But I know we have the same dad - we are three peas in a pod. I look in the mirror and see my sister and brother looking back at me. I am the one with the strongest resemblance to my mother. I am grateful to my adopted parents and I was lucky. Birth mother only speaks to one of her three children. What a sad waste.

Years on I am a grandparent carer and it stopped my gs's going into the care system, particularly gs2. His case featured in the national newspapers which leads me to should children be removed from their bio parents in this day and age. My answer sadly is yes. I cannot go into details of our case but their mum improved for a time and I was hopeful for the boys. It did not last long though and a return to neglecting even more children and heavy drinking returned. Sometimes you have to accept that this is who they are.

I am no fan of the family courts believe me but sometimes a placement away from the family must be made. There is the provision for special guardianship, but adoption cuts all family ties. I will always remember the cries from women who had lost their children at court.

but how much support can realistically have been put in place if the child came to you at a year old?

She could have been known to SS for many years, it could have been her 2nd or 10th child to have been removed. There could have been years of support offered.
If it was her first/only, she might have never engaged with the support offered, and by a year it would have been long obvious that she was never going to do anything necessary.
There is endless support offered.

@Mittens030869 I have a lot of sympathy for my children's birth mother. She isn't a bad person, she always loved them, but loving is the easy part. We have letterbox every 6 months and do get letters back which makes her pretty much the only person I write letters to. She had a rubbish childhood and in this day and age I think would have been taken into care herself. I really hope she makes the changes she needs and meets someone who she can settle down with and make a family of her own.

@Mittens030869 I have a lot of sympathy for my children's birth mother. She isn't a bad person, she always loved them, but loving is the easy part. We have letterbox every 6 months and do get letters back which makes her pretty much the only person I write letters to. She had a rubbish childhood and in this day and age I think would have been taken into care herself. I really hope she makes the changes she needs and meets someone who she can settle down with and make a family of her own.

@Confusedamonium

Before deciding to adopt, I'd never really been aware of this but it appears that a huge chunk of society are really, really against adoption - and I just don't understand why.

• SIL thinks children should be in foster care in case their parents change their minds or change their behaviour. She thinks permanently removing a child (no matter how much support has been offered or how long/severe the problems are) is unfair on the biological parents.
• DM thinks that no one can love an adopted child as much as a biological child - despite what we tell her.

People make comments about how cruel it is that children are taken from their parents (to both the children and the parents). Can anyone actually explain why they think it's better that children either float around foster placements or remain in abusive homes? What really shocks me is that foster carers are perceived as saintly carers for innocent souls and adopters are perceived as evil child snatchers. My parents foster and get no end of praise for it but one mention of adoption and people turn frosty.

I find it really sad that your family is so unsupportive. Also your SIL really doesn´t seem to understand how bad some families treat their children and that this is unlikely to change in a lot of cases!

I am aware of lots of adopted children personally and never heard anyone mention what you have said? The comments seem to have mainly come from your family? The vibe I have from people about parents who adopt is how wonderful they are to given a child/ren in need a home.

Current day UK adoptions seem to almost exclusively be due to proven parental inability. I would think that can only be positive for the child.

Domestic infant adoption in the US seems entirely different with pressure before birth on young, poor parents who could well keep their child with support. I do think that's unethical.

There's also the previous tragedy of the baby scoop era and I know a couple of mothers from that.

It does colour my whole view of adoption and I can't imagine not knowing where every feature comes from, Dad's hands, Granny's nose etc. But I'm sure those things are very unimportant if you're neglected or abused.