to not understand why so many people are against adoption?

[Confusedamonium]

Before deciding to adopt, I'd never really been aware of this but it appears that a huge chunk of society are really, really against adoption - and I just don't understand why.

• SIL thinks children should be in foster care in case their parents change their minds or change their behaviour. She thinks permanently removing a child (no matter how much support has been offered or how long/severe the problems are) is unfair on the biological parents.
• DM thinks that no one can love an adopted child as much as a biological child - despite what we tell her.

People make comments about how cruel it is that children are taken from their parents (to both the children and the parents). Can anyone actually explain why they think it's better that children either float around foster placements or remain in abusive homes? What really shocks me is that foster carers are perceived as saintly carers for innocent souls and adopters are perceived as evil child snatchers. My parents foster and get no end of praise for it but one mention of adoption and people turn frosty.

YouKidsIsCrazy What do they do instead of adoptions in Ireland if the birth family are abusive/neglectful and there aren't other family members available?

Long term foster care, but there do tend to be more family members available.

I have a problem with the social services system more than the people actually adopting. SS are very quick to remove children perhaps for fear of blame if something did go wrong or maybe, many are just power-mad and cruel. Family services are currently lawless and nobody questions them. I’m a teacher and I’ve seen some awful examples.

One child was taken from their mum because their mum put poo through people’s letterboxes. They’ve been in long term care ever since and the mum has had more children which she has been able to keep.

I’m sure many people adopting can offer amazing lives for children but in my opinion, kids are much happier with their birth mum despite what they are like.

oh my so much going on here

firstly fostering - if it was regarded more widely as the skilled profession that it really is then the quality of foster care would improve. I know several wondeful foster carers, my son had a good foster family - what are they supposed to live on, fresh air? Yes they do it because they care about children but it is at the end of the day a job, and one which should be valued more.

Giving birth parents more chances - I have great sympathy for both my son’s birth parents for different reasons, on one side he is the third generation to go through the care system. My son was known to social services before birth, his birth mum had 4 years of chances, he then spent 3 years in foster care while his dad was given more chances. 7 years of chances.

What has my son gained from adoption? Stability, an adoring family, friends, an education, a future and a chance to break the cycle. He has gone from special primary school to mainstream education and is now at college and has a Saturday job. I feel confident his children will not follow the same path. By contrast his brother - birth family given 8 years of chances, he has spent the last five years in foster care and a succession of residential units. He has had virtually no education for 3 years - at 13 he has a very uncertain future.

I do think that people are not prepared enough for the realities of adoption. My heart sinks every time I see posts asking for ‘positive’ stories as they don’t want to hear the ‘horror’ stories. I could tell a very positive story about our adoption, but I refuse to leave out the difficult bits. Adoption can be very very tough, I am 8 years along, my son is 16, we have been through the worst and come out the other side, but people need to understand that there could be very rough times.
The best training I had was listening to other people’s stories and learning from experienced adopters.

There is financial support available for adopters - its called Adoption Allowance, I have one. However it is not a statutory benefit and with austerity, they have become very hard to get.

And yes - I couldn’t love my son any more than if I had birthed him. We have been through so much together, overwhelming, unconditional love is what kept us going. He is not lucky to have me, I am lucky to have him.

SS are very quick to remove children perhaps for fear of blame if something did go wrong or maybe, many are just power-mad and cruel. Family services are currently lawless and nobody questions them

absolute nonsense. Children are not removed from parents unless its absolutely necessary, if anything they are often left long past the point they should be somewhere safer.
Power mad and cruel? Fuck off.

I had fertility issues & came to the conclusion that adoption was something I could never consider, it would never feel right to me to have a child I hadn't given birth to. I have friends that have or are adopted, it was right for them & their parents but for me I just couldn't do it after seeing the issues that some of the adopted children I know of have.

YouKidsIsCrazy

If your SS then telling somebody to Fuck off for having a different opinion supports my point. I’ve seen many kids taken away, granted not adopted, for not having the life that them at the top expect. And yes, I’ve also met many cruel people in that industry. One who called the kids in care ‘a totally different breed’.

This is a tough one. I think a lot of it is the stigma and awful things that happened with adoption in previous years. I don’t for one minute doubt that you can’t love an adopted child as much as a biological one though.

My husband is adopted, it has led to deep psychological scars, that I don’t think will ever be healed. And every day it bothers me that no one From his biological family have ever bothered to look for him. I don’t know what the right answer is OP.

@twilightermummy

I have a problem with the social services system more than the people actually adopting. SS are very quick to remove children perhaps for fear of blame if something did go wrong or maybe, many are just power-mad and cruel. Family services are currently lawless and nobody questions them. I’m a teacher and I’ve seen some awful examples.

One child was taken from their mum because their mum put poo through people’s letterboxes. They’ve been in long term care ever since and the mum has had more children which she has been able to keep.

I’m sure many people adopting can offer amazing lives for children but in my opinion, kids are much happier with their birth mum despite what they are like.

I am (was) also a teacher and have never seen anything like what you describe. Quite the reverse, too many chances for the parents and the children becoming more and more damaged.

I have a problem with the social services system more than the people actually adopting. SS are very quick to remove children perhaps for fear of blame if something did go wrong or maybe, many are just power-mad and cruel. Family services are currently lawless and nobody questions them. I’m a teacher and I’ve seen some awful examples.

Really? That's at odds with the actual evidence.

kids are much happier with their birth mum despite what they are like

Surely you don't actually mean despite what they are like?

My best friend is adopted, her birth mum is a horrible woman who's had child after child after child removed from her, continues to steal and lie to fuel her drug habit (often from and to my friend as a child who just wanted to know her) and is very nasty when she doesn't get her own way.

My friend has blocked all contact now and it's been that way since she was about 16 when she finally gave up trying to have a relationship with her. Her parents (adopted) are lovely people and have given her such a good life, they are her mum and dad and I guarantee you she wouldn't say she'd have been happier with her BM despite what she is like.

I was a teacher for many years and I never saw anything like that.

@twilightermummy

have you really any idea why children are removed from birth families?

Do you think they are happier being neglected, starved, sexually abused, physically abused, witnessing domestic violence, drug abuse? If you knew the conditions that my son experienced in his first four years I don’t think you would say that, and to be honest, compared to the storied of some of my friends kids, he got off lightly.

@twilightermummy
So they'd be happier with a birth parent who does one or more of sexually abuses them, uses them as an ashtray, hits them, doesn't feed them, leaves them alone in an unsafe house, doesn't make sure they are clean or have warm clothes, lets them witness violent arguments, leaves drugs lying around, passes them from pillar to post, new 'uncles' every other week?

x-post with Ted.

My mixed-race brother in law was adopted by a white Christian family. He’s a top lawyer now and director of his firm. He gets on very well with his siblings. However, he still doesn’t feel like he fits in anywhere. He strived to be a success to prove a point. He’s unsure whether he wants to contact his birth parents but he’s still against adoption. To the point quite frankly him and my sister would probably have been divorced a while back if it wasn’t for the fact that he wants to keep a stable family, even though the kids are adults now.

For those saying SS take kids away too late or in awful circumstances, perhaps they do. I’m just saying in my experience, I’ve seen what I would deem mistakes of the system.

Of course, kids can’t stay where there is abuse but for neglect, where a lot of it is due to circumstances that we as a country often cause, then I think it would be better to deal with these problems rather than wheel the kids out to naice homes.

If your SS then telling somebody to Fuck off for having a different opinion supports my point

You're a teacher who can't spell you're?

And who said I'm "SS"?

My best friend is adopted, her birth mum is a horrible woman who's had child after child after child removed from her, continues to steal and lie to fuel her drug habit (often from and to my friend as a child who just wanted to know her) and is very nasty when she doesn't get her own way.

My DDs' birth mum isn't nasty, but she and her partner (the birth father) have a dysfunctional relationship, with domestic abuse and drug taking. She grew up in care and was in numerous different residential homes as a teenager. I've always believed that the system let her down and felt very sad for her and the four children taken off her at birth.

My DH and I adopted two of them, and our DDs are full birth siblings who are now 11 and 8. I would be happy for more contact with their other siblings, but their adoptive parents haven't wanted this (we keep up contact on Facebook with them, though).

My DDs' birth mum isn't nasty

Unfortunately my friends BM is. Very emotionally abusive and nasty. She's shown me the messages she had on SM from her etc...

Fortunately, she just rolls her eyes now and as I say, hasn't responded since she was about 16.

Mittens030869

Did the parents receive help before the children were taken?
Were they encouraged to separate?
I think that we need to help families more.

@twilightermummy

‘wheel the kids out to naice homes’

what on earth is that supposed to mean? My son wasnt ‘wheeled’ out anywhere and if ensuring that my son is clothed, educated, fed, kept warm and dry, rather than sleeping on the kitchen floor in a crack den, is ‘naice’ then so be it.
The vast majority of adopters are just ordinary families, I know lots of adopters, I have only ever come across one seriously rich adopter. Yes I have a had a good education, which I worked hard for, yes I have a decent civil service job, but like most of my adopter friends, I’m far from being a high earner.

If abused/neglected kids are moved to family/friends wouldn't the birth parents pressurise them to give the kids back? Possibly secretly?

Did the parents receive help before the children were taken?

None. What happened was the evil child snatcher signal went out, a social worker put on her cape, and swooped out of the sky to grab the poor kiddiwinks with her sharp talons, before dropping them into the chute at the foster care processing centre. Except the one she kept to eat, obviously.

Or, in the real world, there were years of interventions, endless meetings, supervision, countless ours of effort for which every support worker got abuse for, and then, as the last resort, the children were removed to expensive foster care, after spending vast amounts of public time and money to try and keep them safely at home with their family.

Could be either.

I’m just saying in my experience, I’ve seen what I would deem mistakes of the system.

The system relies on humans doing their jobs properly, health workers, teachers, support workers, legal professionals and social workers, mistakes can happen at any point in the process - and they do - painfully recounted in the Serious Case Reviews undertaken when a child dies having had safeguarding concerns raised.

How long should we leave children with neglectful parents? Until they’re crying every night from lack of food or infected nappy rash? Until they can’t walk because they’ve only ever been in a buggy in front of the tv? Until they have delayed development due to neglect? Until their brain development is so impacted by abuse and neglect that they may never learn to read or write? Or maybe we leave them until they’re so infested with nits and worms that their house needs fumigated, or until the drugs their parent gives them to shut them up starts to damage their brain. Or maybe we leave them until they die in circumstances so chaotic that no one even knows how old the child was when they died?

Tell me, just how long do we leave these children before we accept that maybe they aren’t happier in their birth family?

@twilightermummy

What I do know is that they hid from Social Services when the birth mum was pregnant with DD1 and wouldn't work with them. She didn't have any antenatal care when pregnant with DD1 and she ended up giving birth on the bathroom floor, and DD1 very nearly died.

She also intimidated DD1's foster carer, who was herself a feisty woman. But it isn't her being nasty, she's just very damaged, I realise that.

She did pretend at one point that she was splitting up from her partner, but in reality she never could.

I have empathy for her, but my responsibility is for the DDs that were placed with us. They both have attachment issues because of being separated from their birth mum and then from their foster parents at the age of one.

@tinybuddha

I’m sorry that your husband is still so troubled, did he ever have therapy or counselling? My son had intensive therapy from about age 12 to 14. It was the hardesr thing I have ever experienced, let alone how traumatic it was for him, but it paid off. There will always be scars, but he has pretty much at peace with life. There are still questions that need answers, but he is in a good place to move forward with life.

This is not to have a go at you, but I do think we need to make a distiction between ‘being adopted’ and what happened to make adoption a necessity. Being adopted did not scar your husband, it was what happened to him before. I think its something that is often confused.