to not understand why so many people are against adoption?

[Confusedamonium]

Before deciding to adopt, I'd never really been aware of this but it appears that a huge chunk of society are really, really against adoption - and I just don't understand why.

• SIL thinks children should be in foster care in case their parents change their minds or change their behaviour. She thinks permanently removing a child (no matter how much support has been offered or how long/severe the problems are) is unfair on the biological parents.
• DM thinks that no one can love an adopted child as much as a biological child - despite what we tell her.

People make comments about how cruel it is that children are taken from their parents (to both the children and the parents). Can anyone actually explain why they think it's better that children either float around foster placements or remain in abusive homes? What really shocks me is that foster carers are perceived as saintly carers for innocent souls and adopters are perceived as evil child snatchers. My parents foster and get no end of praise for it but one mention of adoption and people turn frosty.

I would also like to point out that it often really isn't in the child's best interests to stay with their birth families. Have a read of the Stately Homes thread on the Relationships board; maybe then you'll remove your blinkers.

My DSis and I were sexually abused by our F and others, which has left us both with complex PTSD and other MH issues. So it does somewhat colour my views about the importance of 'keeping families together'.

Or, in the real world, there were years of interventions, endless meetings, supervision, countless ours of effort for which every support worker got abuse for, and then, as the last resort, the children were removed to expensive foster care, after spending vast amounts of public time and money to try and keep them safely at home with their family.

I am an adopter and I love my child, but the support his birth parents got was appalling - basically nothing. It was one counselling session which was declined. I am obviously all for adoption because the alternative is also appalling, but let’s not pretend that the support they get to keep their children is enough. If they got half of what you’re suggesting, they would be very lucky....

I’m not saying social workers aren’t working hard enough but there aren’t enough of them and there isn’t enough support.

If all these parents are so evil why do the kids scream and cry not to be taken from them? Why are their parents equally so devastated? I know kids often don’t know better but they understand love. Removing kids is traumatic for all involved.
People make mistakes and we should help. I’m not saying leave kids with people who are violent towards them or sexually abuse them.
There are a lot of kids brought up in homes that we as a society often want to erase. I knew what I would deem to be a terrible mum. She always put herself first and to me, the kids were in squalor. It was awful but the kids adored her and wanted to be with her. 2 have since been excluded from school but that is some people’s lives and we need to accept that. Some rich drug dealers had their daughter crossing county lines. When SS appeared to remove her one afternoon she absolutely wailed the school down screaming for her mum and dad. I don’t know what the answer is I really don’t but adoption and care must be for significant risk to life in my opinion.

Obviously I wouldn't have liked it to be removed from my parents. I loved my abusive F and grieved for him when he died. That doesn't mean that the sexual abuse didn't thoroughly destroy my life. My DB, who was abused by other people but not my F, is a shell of a human being at 53.

Children always love their families because it's all they know.

@twilightermummy

I have a problem with the social services system more than the people actually adopting. SS are very quick to remove children perhaps for fear of blame if something did go wrong or maybe, many are just power-mad and cruel. Family services are currently lawless and nobody questions them. I’m a teacher and I’ve seen some awful examples.

One child was taken from their mum because their mum put poo through people’s letterboxes. They’ve been in long term care ever since and the mum has had more children which she has been able to keep.

I’m sure many people adopting can offer amazing lives for children but in my opinion, kids are much happier with their birth mum despite what they are like.

If my son had remained with his birth mum he would have died before his first birthday. Care to explain how he would be happier dead?

If all these parents are so evil why do the kids scream and cry not to be taken from them? Why are their parents equally so devastated?

No-ones actually this stupid, are they? No way are you a teacher, at least we all certainly hope not.

I don’t know what the answer is I really don’t but adoption and care must be for significant risk to life in my opinion

So anything short of they could DIE and you think they should stay with their parents...you're sick.

SimonJT
Evidently that was a situation where Social Services did their jobs correctly.
Where life is at significant risk then that is when I believe children should be removed but unfortunately that doesn’t always happen.

@twilightermummy

If all these parents are so evil why do the kids scream and cry not to be taken from them? Why are their parents equally so devastated? I know kids often don’t know better but they understand love. Removing kids is traumatic for all involved. People make mistakes and we should help. I’m not saying leave kids with people who are violent towards them or sexually abuse them. There are a lot of kids brought up in homes that we as a society often want to erase. I knew what I would deem to be a terrible mum. She always put herself first and to me, the kids were in squalor. It was awful but the kids adored her and wanted to be with her. 2 have since been excluded from school but that is some people’s lives and we need to accept that. Some rich drug dealers had their daughter crossing county lines. When SS appeared to remove her one afternoon she absolutely wailed the school down screaming for her mum and dad. I don’t know what the answer is I really don’t but adoption and care must be for significant risk to life in my opinion.

What a load of bullshit!! How can you believe that because a child is upset at being removed from all they have ever known (which would be upsetting and scary for an adult) that it means they shouldn’t be removed because the love thier parents! People can still love each other but be toxic, other people do things in the name of love which are harmful. Children crave love and attention, if all they have ever known is abuse and neglect they will still equate that with love as they do not know anything else. Loving your child doesn’t make you a good parent if you are not providing shelter, warmth, food and protecting them from harm. I’m sure plenty of druggies living on the streets love thier children but being unable to put the needs of thier children before thier need to spend all thier money on drugs absolutely means the children need to be removed (after all possible help to get the parents clean has been done and failed) doesn’t matter if the child is upset. Do you when you child cries because you won’t give them sweets give in and let them have it because they are upset so most really want the sweets? No because it’s nearly tea time or they have had enough sugar that day. A child doesn’t automatically know what’s good for them and needs to be taught.

@twilightermummy

If all these parents are so evil why do the kids scream and cry not to be taken from them? Why are their parents equally so devastated? I know kids often don’t know better but they understand love. Removing kids is traumatic for all involved. People make mistakes and we should help. I’m not saying leave kids with people who are violent towards them or sexually abuse them. There are a lot of kids brought up in homes that we as a society often want to erase. I knew what I would deem to be a terrible mum. She always put herself first and to me, the kids were in squalor. It was awful but the kids adored her and wanted to be with her. 2 have since been excluded from school but that is some people’s lives and we need to accept that. Some rich drug dealers had their daughter crossing county lines. When SS appeared to remove her one afternoon she absolutely wailed the school down screaming for her mum and dad. I don’t know what the answer is I really don’t but adoption and care must be for significant risk to life in my opinion.

You are advocating for children to be abused and neglected.

YouKidsIsCrazy
I think that you are picking and choosing bits from what I am saying without reading it as a whole. In the examples I have given no, I don’t think the kids should have been removed and I have plenty more. Some of the reasons others have provided then yes, they should have been taken. I’m saying it’s not always the right thing to do and SS can be too quick to take that decision imo.
I think you are too emotionally invested in this and can’t accept an opinion different to your own. I’m far from sick and many young people in the care system at my school confide in me. I’ve had one emailing throughout the holiday.

@twilightermummy

*SimonJT* Evidently that was a situation where Social Services did their jobs correctly. Where life is at significant risk then that is when I believe children should be removed but unfortunately that doesn’t always happen.

And you're quite sure you are getting 100% the correct story from the birth family who claim social services are taking their kids for minor issues?

I’m beginning to think @twilightermummy is a troll.

I am never usually rude or uncivil to people on forums but I don’t believe anyone could be this dense. I’m so grateful that my son never encountered teachers like you.

If all these parents are so evil why do the kids scream and cry not to be taken from them? Why are their parents equally so devastated? I know kids often don’t know better but they understand love.

In all my years of working with young people and families I have only once met a parent who did not believe that they loved their child, and I have met many parents who neglected and/ or otherwise abused their child. I have not meant a single abused child who did not express love for, and be utterly desperate to receive love from, their abusive parent.

I work in inpatient mental health now. You have no idea of the lifetime impact of childhood abuse and neglect if you honestly think that children should only be removed from situations presenting an immediate and significant threat to their life. If you really are a teacher, you are in desperate need of updated safeguarding training and I fear for the children you are supposed to help protect.

Well I’ll bow out now as I’m upsetting too many people. I’m certainly not a troll, I just think that some families in the depths of despair should have more help.

many young people in the care system at my school confide in me. I’ve had one emailing throughout the holiday.

What does your DSL think of this?

I think that you are picking and choosing bits from what I am saying without reading it as a whole

You said what you said, don't downplay it now.

many young people in the care system at my school confide in me. I’ve had one emailing throughout the holiday

If this is true, fgs stop it now. You are clearly not someone who should be in contact outside of school with vulnerable young people. Not only do you have incredibly dodgy, biased, unhinged opinions, it's also completely unprofessional and frankly odd.

Put the bottle down Twilightmummy, granted it’s Friday but it’s not even 3pm!

Sad for the birth parent/s but in a way if some children were taken away and adopted sooner rather than later then they would be less traumatised / damaged .

@unmarkedbythat

You're so right. The effects of the childhood SA on my siblings and me has been lifelong. Sometimes there really is such a thing as 'a fate worse than death' (or it feels that way).

@twilightermummy

Well I’ll bow out now as I’m upsetting too many people. I’m certainly not a troll, I just think that *some* families in the depths of despair should have more help.

I won't argue with that- lots of people need more help. However, giving people chance after chance after chance at the expense of their childs whole future is just not on. You have to balance the needs and rights of the childs whole life- because childhood trauma lasts a whole life- against the parents wants and wishes sometimes.

@Mittens030869

If all they have ever known is abuse and neglect they will still equate that with love as they do not know anything else.

They then think that any relationship that isn’t neglectful and abusive can’t be love - because their mum and/or dad loved them and neglected them and abused them. They literally can’t tolerate a loving, caring, safe relationship.

As for a parent having a child removed after declining one counselling session, statutory services have to evidence all the efforts made to keep children with their birth parents. It simply wouldn’t get through court without multiple attempts to make the home environment safe, or strong evidence that there was no way to do this.

I can count on one hand the parents I could honestly say didn’t show any love for their kids, and those parents had their own traumatic past. I know lots of parents where love simply wasn’t enough to enable them to care for their kids on the most basic of levels.

@ApricotOLeary

If abused/neglected kids are moved to family/friends wouldn't the birth parents pressurise them to give the kids back? Possibly secretly?

It doesn’t work like that. The child will still be subject to a care order even when placed with friends and family foster carers - so 6 monthly reviews of their care plan, 6 weekly visits by social worker. If a family and friend carer decided to go for a special guardianship order, there would be less supervision but social services would still be involved in assessing and making recommendations to the court. If there was a suspicion carers were allowing access by parents to the children outside of what was agreed in a care plan, then its likely social services would get involved in deciding if that was in the child’s best interests and if the carers could put the child’s needs before the parents’ etc

I’m describing the system in England there, not Ireland, in case of confusion!

I would happily adopt and am interested in fostering. Unfortunately, my husband doesn't think that he could provide the same level of affection to a child who isn't biologically his. For that reason, we won't do it, but if circumstances change, I would very likely apply.