If you WFH what time should you start work?

[EatPrayYoga]

If official hours are 9-5, is it a problem if you are not logged on by 9 every day?

I'm a team manager and one person on the team consistently logs on after 9 am. I know because our system shows a green or other colour next to everyone's names in an email so if I email the team I can see who is online and who isn't.

I usually send an email in a morning to confirm any things to be aware of for that day including who is not working that day and who is covering their work.

He usually logs on at about 9.05 but I'm not sure whether to mention this as he is only slightly late. He is in a junior role but wants to progress. There are other people in the same role who start work earlier than 9 to get things done so he stands out as doing less though I can't say who does more or less work in a day as their work is delegated by different members of the team.

I also realise we are in difficult times. He lives with parents and has no children or pets but I believe there are other adult siblings do not sure how easy or difficult the WFH circumstances are.

IABU to be unimpressed?

If you are contracted for certain hours, then you work those.
You don't take the piss and log on late.
I know my ds2 would have a disciplinary if lateness was regular, he's currently wfh in a job with set hours.
It's starting work at 9am, not just thinking of starting up then.
I'd have words, it's not fair on everyone else.

How do you know he isn't doing work but not logged on? I usually start my day review my planned work etc or making calls if people are free.

You're quibbling over five minutes - how long has it taken you to post on here and read all the responses?

Ridiculous behaviour.

@EatPrayYoga

I am on annual leave today but working as I have a few things to do so I think it's fine I'm on mumsnet!

I posted about the time because I know the other things require performance management but I am not sure about the start time. People clearly have different views even within my organisation.

I think the start time is something you could raise during 121.

Does he think a 9 o’clock start means logging on at 9or being ready to start at 9.

If he is new to the role , and has been wfh since lockdown then he hasn’t been in an “office “ environment to pick up on your company culture. Could be that he is working in a way that he has previously worked, with a soft start to the day, and hasn’t clocked on to the expectation that in your organisation his working hours start at 9.

Similarly with finishing on the dot of 5 when he has incomplete work that is backing up, perhaps he doesn’t realise that your expectation is that in a professional job he needs to keep track of his own level of performance and adapt his working hours accordingly.

Perhaps part of your 121 next time could be running through what the company’s expectations are. If he then still isn’t managing to complete work satisfactorily and isn’t coping with time management you need to escalate the discrepancy formally so he realises that he is in danger of actually losing his job never mind progressing.

If you don’t think this is appropriate for you to raise then ask his mentor to raise it. The mentors remit should include advice on ways of balancing home/ work expectations so that both are met.

You're being unreasonable and petty over 5 minutes, especially if you expect people to work unpaid overtime - you can't have it both ways. I absolutely hate the micromanaging of people's hours, it doesn't make a difference.

Sounds like your real issue is his underperfoemance which is not unreasonable or petty so yes, take him up on that. Ask him how he's doing, how he thinks his work is, what he is struggling with, then frame your problems with his performance and work together to find a way for him to improve.

You say he's junior? I think for anybody new to any role working from home it must be pretty difficult to pick up on an organisation's unspoken work rules, expectations and that invisible ethos that everybody just knows but isn't written down e.g. we're all at our desks working by 9 except Mary because she drops the kids off and makes up the time on Saturdays or it's ok to take an extra long lunch on your birthday but only if the boss isn't in the building or those who want to progress are expected to work over and above their contracted hours.

Basically this guy is at a massive disadvantage because he's not able to read the room like you could when you were all physically in the office. I think it would be only fair to him to explain expectations more clearly and say 'it's been noticed' that he's not there at 9am when all the others are giving the impression he's less committed.

@EatPrayYoga

Oh come off it!! It's 5 minutes, not only are you being unreasonable, but you're being absolutely ridiculous!

What's with all the exclamation marks? I'm asking for opinions, which many people have kindly given, and I have taken these on board. Calm yourself!

You shouldn't have to ask for opinions. Clearly you're thinking of disciplining this employee or you wouldn't be on here asking for opinions. Also, I'm pretty sure it's taken you more than 5 minutes to write this post and read these comments all morning! Maybe your Manager should be having a discussion with you too have a word with yourself

@vanillandhoney

You're quibbling over five minutes - how long has it taken you to post on here and read all the responses?

Ridiculous behaviour.

Exactly this ...I get the impression that you have got it in for this guy and you are trying to justify your attitude!

Seems like he's clearly not your favourite employee! I agree with others.. lots take smoking breaks, snack breaks, have long off-topic chats on teams... there is more than one way to not be working.

Being at home just because you're online doesn't mean you're working.. those extra hours people may well just be logging on to please you while watching tv for an hour. I agree with others that it's very toxic to expect unpaid extra work. It's all about getting your job done in the allotted hours... if you need to work late just to do that I think that's a more serious problem than making a scene about a ridiculous 5 minutes..

Hahaha wtf - who cares once everyone is getting their work done.

Couldn’t cope working somewhere so strict about time ! I just get my work done every day - nobody checks what time I start or finish ! It would probably only be questioned if there was some sort of issue with my work or something

I’ve never been so grateful to work in a field with flexible working. As long as we do 8 hours a day they don’t care. I work 10ish to 6ish, usually more than 8 hours some days, but then my boss makes sure I flex out any overages before the end of the pay period. As long as the work is being done, everything is fine. Presenteeism is no good for anyone.

Wow. With that level of micromanagement, you'll be driving good people away. And you are unreasonable. If he switches his laptop on at 9am and is online and logged in by five past, that is reasonable. Do you pay him from 8.55?

Is his work up to standard, is he accurate, positive, helpful? How fast is his broadband? Are you paying for it?

You could explain to him that he is at a disadvantage to get promoted if he isn't on-line earlier but to be honest with everything that is going on, if he is otherwise reliable, I wouldn't even mention it.

Is this about time or performance?? Some people might log on but not be working? I think if you have performance issues it certainly needs addressing- i wouldn't quibble over 5 minutes- if you went to an office are you expected to walk in at 9am or see first client/ first meeting 9am? Or is there a 10/15 min leeway? I think it pays to be flexible both from employers and employees- my hours are 8-4 but I tend to be logged on by 7.15 and I don't leave till 4 but I may need to take the extra time in the day to carry out duties for the kids when they're home etc- this never affects my performance and I always make sure I've done my hours so i think you need to ask is this hours or actually are they taking the pee .

@Bouncycastle12

I think 9.05 could just be the time it takes for his computer to warm up!

Exactly what I was thinking.

When I log on, it often takes ages for Citrix to wake up and get me connected.

@Bouncycastle12

I think 9.05 could just be the time it takes for his computer to warm up!

Then turn the computer on at 8:55

Your outlook on workplace culture sounds quite outdated OP. Most larger workplaces are now realising that flexibility is key to efficiency. I don't log on until 9:15/20 after the school run - I still get my work done. I might log off at 4:30 sometimes.... other days I might stay online until 7/8pm. In my workplace we are technically contracted to work 9-5:30, but really we all just consider our work hours are 37.5 per week, and flex around each day. This is a big, global company though... is yours a smaller outfit?

5 mins really isn't a deal breaker - in the office you would easily lose 5 mins (most likely a lot more over the course of a day!) by grabbing a coffee or bumping into someone in the kitchen. Also, booting up a laptop can take a few mins and WFH has certainly increased this time as most of us are needing to log into VPN (including waiting for a VPN code/token to be text or sent to us to use as VPN login details) as well as the usual passwords etc. Then you have to open Outlook, Teams etc, which can sometimes take a long time to load - particularly if theres a lot in the inbox. The green tick to show you're online is not fool proof. I notice sometimes mine isn't showing as online despite being online for hours and even when I try to toggle it to 'Online' it doesn't change. It can be temperamental. If you insist on using metrics to clock watch all employees you really need a different system to simply checking the MSOffice green tick.

Finally, you mention he isn't completing all his work. Certainly discuss this with him. But realistically, despite others putting in more hours (unpaid) you can't force him to do this. If the work you're giving him equates to more hours than he is contracted then there's a work allocation task that management need to tackle. I totally appreciate that lots of people work more hours than needed (I'm the same!), but insisting on it is a different matter. You'd need to handle that correctly as these things can get v messy (speaking from experience of being on the legal side of this!)

I really have not got it in for him. I like him. I have mentioned issues on our catch ups but never anything formal, if anything I worry I have been too easy.

I am not thinking of disciplining at all at this stage. I was not sure whether to mention the 5 minutes as I spoke to two other managers at my place, without naming names, and one said they would absolutely expect everyone to be logged in by 9 while the other said they would not mind.

He is positive. He is very nice and has no issues with anyone. He has a few things to work on and I am sure he will but I am concerned he won't get to where he wants to because I know the more seniors will consider things like what time they start work and it also seems unfair that someone in the same role is working from around 7:30/8-6 while he is working 9-5, if that.

Based on the opinions on here I am not going to say anything but I am going to speak to someone else within my business as these things clearly vary from one type of business to the next.

I do plenty of work offline. Calls, reading emails and reading reports. Usually with a coffee first thing. I can be offline for a periods but I’m working.

It’s a discussion point at a 1:1 where the OP needs to make no assumptions.

Lots of work places define a nine start as people being sat at desks working. Others accept people have come through the door and are hanging up coats and making a coffee.

If this was normal times, and he was in the door at 8.59 but it took 5 minutes to get logged on, would you be thinking that there was an issue?

I think it sounds a bit like micro management tbh. And I certainly wouldn't be saying anything until I'd checked that he's still logged on at 5pm.

I agree with others that it's very toxic to expect unpaid extra work. It's all about getting your job done in the allotted hours...

Really depends on the profession and the level of pay. I’ve always worked in a profession that pays very well and has core office hours but a clause in the contract saying that employees must work whatever hours are necessary to get the work done. The extent of the work is determined by chargeable hours targets that are pretty much unacheivable if you work core hours only, plus a requirement to be available to clients as and when.

The money and benefits are good though.

Does this guy have to submit timesheets OP? I must say that you do come across a bit as if, on a fairly basic level, you dislike him.

I think they should be on the system ready to work at 9 am as that is the stance that is taken in the office by all departments I have worked in.

This is where YABVU. If logging onto the system is part of his job then it is something he should be doing in work time, not his own.

If you tried to discipline someone for this you would come seriously unstuck.

I'm far more interested in quality of work /productivity than timing people precisely but I guess it might vary depending on the type of work

What an awful company. They are all logging on at 8am, just to keep their jobs.

I am job hunting now. The thought of working for such a company, that seems to be more and more the norm, fills me with dred.

If his start time is 9 o clock, then he should be ready to start at 9, not loading his computer up etc at this time.

Most jobs would expect you to get into the workplace before your start time, so you are ready to start at your set time, regardless of whether you are on a hourly wage or a salary.

If he needs to start 5 minutes later every day, because of x and y, then he needs to ask for this. As yes it isn't a big deal, only 5 minutes, but it's professionalism for the job whether you're a cleaner, call centre work or managing director.

But, with all his issues, not doing work on time, not attending meetings, surely it's time to address.

When was his last appraisal or one-to-one?