To bin the old-fashioned racist doll? *title tweaked by MNHQ*

[MrsBonnie]

Please excuse the offensive term.

My daughter was gifted a very old doll from my husband’s great aunt. Said aunt is in her 80s now and said that the doll held special memories and she wanted DD to have it.

I don’t want to have the doll in the house, but don’t want to offend the aunt by saying we don’t want it. She does come round from time to time, so there’s a risk she’d enquire after it if she was round. WWYD?

(We didn't have a clue what it was about and just did what we were told/taught, of course ... Which was kind of the basis of the Nazi education too).

@wewillmeetagain

How about native Americans being neither red nor Indian. Red skin is essentially a term used by English colonisers in the late. 1700s. Lots on Google if you want to look it up

@StylishMummy

Maybe I'm ignorant and NOT wanting to cause a bun fight - but my Nan had Golliwogs in her house that she'd collected from a tea company or something - why are they offensive?

Isn't it like saying Barbie is the caricature of a blonde woman, or a pochahontis doll is offensive to native Americans?

Please don't condemn my understanding as I'm struggling to relate my lovely Nanna's dolls to some sort of racism that makes people walk out of shops

Really? You can’t see why these dolls could possibly be offensive to black people?

It was such a different world. We had no idea that Gollies represented black people. In Enid Blyton books, alongside Noddy and Big Ears, why would we?

And the offensive tv programming wasn't watched despite it being offensive. We weren't all sat there thinking 'haha let's revel in all this offensive humour'. It just didn't register that it was, alongside Benny Hill chasing busty women in short skirts, it just wasn't widely thought about.

Tell your Aunt you don't want it so she can keep it... you don't take something that is of sentimental value of hers regardless and throw it in the bin.

@Fluffybutter My nan and i collected the brooches too. I still have them. I wouldn’t dream if throwing them away. They are part of my childhood.

@wewillmeetagain

Sorry I'm being dumb here but why is "red indian" racist? I'm not being deliberately goady, I've genuinely never heard it and would like to know why.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_name_controversy#:~:text=Redskin%2FRed%20Indian,-Main%20article%3A%20Redskin&text=The%20term%20was%20largely%20used,the%20Indian%20people%20of%20India.

Ugh sorry for the shit link

@wewillmeetagain

Sorry I'm being dumb here but why is "red indian" racist? I'm not being deliberately goady, I've genuinely never heard it and would like to know why.

Yes, I'm afraid you are. Google it.

My friend has one in her bedroom that she picked up from a charity shop.
Feels wrong on so many levels, can’t understand why she brought it as an adult or why she likes it.
In your shoes I’d hide it away and eventually pass on to a museum or similar given its age.

They're repugnant and I'd happily quietly bin it

My relative collects antique looking things and have a fair few golliwogs and they are on display with all her other things in her huge house (7 bedrooms, I've got 2 so her house to me is huge). I've never thought of those relatives as racists but will be rethinking it..... They foster children so have social workers in their home alot who have obviously never said anything. Would social workers not mention about those in peoples homes? I would never buy or want one personally.

@picklemewalnuts

It was such a different world. We had no idea that Gollies represented black people. In Enid Blyton books, alongside Noddy and Big Ears, why would we?

And the offensive tv programming wasn't watched despite it being offensive. We weren't all sat there thinking 'haha let's revel in all this offensive humour'. It just didn't register that it was, alongside Benny Hill chasing busty women in short skirts, it just wasn't widely thought about.

This. Someone mentioned Til Death Us do Part, which was a satire, you were supposed to think Alf Garnett was a grotesque parody.

These things are part of our history, nothing’s achieved by throwing them away and pretending they didn’t exist.

Will there be a time when someone posts a thread and no one pops up with faux naivete about these racist dolls? I don't care how lovely your nanna is, that doesn't make it acceptable to say the dolls are ok.

@Dreading2020sSeasonFinale

This is a tricky one. I really dislike them but I also don't think I would bin a vintage (or antique depending on age) item so easily. It's a bit like old fur coats or antique ivory cutlery. Things which should never ever EVER be created again, but also their are 'what's done is done' and do have a value (sentimental or an interest in the past) that means they shouldn't be destroyed.

I'd say a nice box to preserve it but away in the attic if it really is a proper old doll.

Agree with this.

Also, I don't feel we should rewrite history by destroying what we don't like or agree with. The doll, as distasteful as it is, is a reminder of how things were and how segments of society were perceived and treated. If your child is old enough, perhaps, you can talk with her about the issues surrounding the doll.

I'm very interested in the posters who have stated that the 'golliwog' badge/dolls were 'always' racist.

I remember them from my youth and can honestly say that none of the people I knew that had collected tokens etc and collected them were in any way racist or viewed any ethnic minority as 'less than' themselves.

I don't dispute for a second that they are offensive/ racist today.

My grandmother collected them, and her best friend was a woman of colour. Neither of them gave the dolls a seconds thought. Certainly neither of them viewed them as offensive in any way.

I had one knitted for me as a child (by my Gran's best friend), and it was my favourite toy for years, but I never once thought it derogitory or racist in any way, and didn't even connect the dolls appearance with anyone of colour, any more than I would connect Barbie's appearance with myself, as a child, I simply accepted the toy as a toy.

No-one I knew, at the time, thought the dolls were racist. They were simply a 'collectable' (of which there were many others e.g 'Tony the Tiger' etc) available at the time.

It needs to be recognized that back then, most people were indeed 'ignorant' of the effect things like the dolls/badges may have had on people of colour, and that, generally speaking, there was no actual 'intent' to upset/ marginalize anyone.
(This was also the time when there were x-ray machines in kids shoe shops ffs, so we were also happy to potentially give our kids radiation/ cancer to see if their shoes fitted properly )

Certainly this was the case in my own family, and I'm hoping this was the case with many, many families, all of whom would be horrified looking back at what was accepted as 'normal'.

I'm thankful that times have changed, and hopefully everyone is far more 'aware' of how actions/ depictions can offend others.

@MuttsNutts

I don't think you will be able to convince an 80 year old lady without causing upset.

Well that very much depends on the individual, regardless of age. My 90yo father would hate to think he had caused offence to anyone by gifting something that has no place in an enlightened society so I would have a conversation that explained why we didn’t want to keep it. Elderly people aren’t incapable of understanding compassion or the difference between right and wrong.

I wouldn’t have a golliwog in my house but instead of destroying it I would speak to the giver and offer it back to them. In my father’s case, I don’t doubt that he would throw it on the fire himself once he realised its implications.

Exactly that. Depends on their mindset. My 60 year old racist mum would argue the toss and say I was being ridiculous but it depends on someone's ego and understanding and compassion.

@QuestionableMouse Thankyou, I understand now. I've not heard that term for a long time but I didn't know it was offensive until today. I've always been taught that they are native Americans though. To those who replied rudely, maybe your bad attitudes to those attempting to educate themselves are part of the reason people are still ignorant of things like this? It doesn't take much to be polite!

Re Enid Blyton I can remember my parents who were very liberal, academics laughing about a woman they’d met at a party who thought Enid Blyton should be banned from school.

Different world.

I've reported my post. Refers to a slur term. Perhaps the thread should be deleted in it's entirety.

@LizzieMacQueen no, it’s definitely a “Gollywog”... my daughter has a whole mix of different skin coloured dolls and toys.

To those asking if the aunt is that naive. Yes, I believe she is. I think she is 86/87, quite old and dittery (although lovely!). I don’t think she understands and has lived her entire life in a tiny Yorkshire village. I think it would make her feel entirely awkward to hand it back. I will keep the doll in the attic, use it as a teaching point when DD is old enough, then decide what to do from there.

@LizzieMacQueen I’m happy for it to be deleted now. Is there a way that I can do that? Sorry my MN knowledge is somewhat limited. I’ve had a quick look around the page and can’t see an option to delete.

I had the "golliwog (chalkie)" no offence intended, band saved from Robertson's jam in the 70's.
Sold them on ebay for over £100 a while back now.
Gave the money to my favourite charity Sally Army.

Why on earth should the thread be deleted?