Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU colleague should quit job now that she's moved to another country?

228 replies

Waferbiscuit · 25/10/2020 12:53

In February colleague told our office that she was moving to Spain in the summer and would be resigning in the late Spring in time for the move. She wasn't happy in her role (which was more than a bit evident) and wanted a change - she was moving back home and would look for something there. She told everyone as wanted to be transparent about what was going on her life and didn't want her resignation to be a surprise.

Then Covid happened, colleague was furloughed from March and even though she DID physically move back to Spain she did not resign. She remained on furlough until this month. She's now back working remotely while living in another country.

She's now saying she won't resign and is lobbying to work remotely on a permanent basis. The rest of us will have to return to the office when we are expected to return; obviously she can't because, well, she lives across an ocean. If she gets to work from home permanently and we don't, because we actually live near to where we work, that feels deeply unfair.

Surely she's having a laugh? I know you can't force someone to resign, but surely carrying on like this isn't possible? HR don't know how to deal with these new situations so I get the impression they are treading lightly, which is not helpful.

OP posts:
EmbarrassedUser · 27/10/2020 08:33

Leave HR to deal with it. Not your problem.

DdraigGoch · 27/10/2020 12:57

I'm amazed (actually, knowing Mumsnet it was completely predictable) just how many people hadn't bothered to read the thread. If OP is having to cover the duties of her colleague then the arrangement is her business.

user1487194234 · 27/10/2020 13:02

I don't actually agree that if the OP is having to cover duties it is necessarily her business.

I expect my staff to do the duties that are required,as I do myself

KarmaStar · 27/10/2020 13:44

If she cannot carry out all aspects of her job then yes she should leave the position.

Ecosse · 27/10/2020 13:45

I don’t agree with people who can work on the office working from home on a permanent basis.

Personally I think everyone should be back in the office on a full time basis ASAP- there are so many benefits in terms of culture and working collaboratively. There are also so many sectors of our economy that rely on people being in offices- from public transport to sandwich bars.

However in this case, the employee lives in Spain. If she is able to do her job remotely, I would personally permit her to do so.

DameFanny · 27/10/2020 13:48

@Ecosse

I don’t agree with people who can work on the office working from home on a permanent basis.

Personally I think everyone should be back in the office on a full time basis ASAP- there are so many benefits in terms of culture and working collaboratively. There are also so many sectors of our economy that rely on people being in offices- from public transport to sandwich bars.

However in this case, the employee lives in Spain. If she is able to do her job remotely, I would personally permit her to do so.

People in general should go into work so sandwich bars stay open but OP's colleague can work from Spain? Have you not read any of the posts about taxation or brexit?
Ecosse · 27/10/2020 13:56

@DameFanny

As a general rule, I think every employee who worked in the office before March should be back in the office as soon as possible on a full-time basis.

Where there are a small number of particular individuals whose circumstances have changed, I would allow them to discuss with their employers whether part or full time working from home could be accommodated. But it should be for a small minority.

DH is a solicitor and his firm are going to allow staff to apply to wfh up to the equivalent of 0.5 days a week from
April if they can demonstrate this is necessary.

DameFanny · 27/10/2020 14:13

Half a day a week? So he doesn't trust his staff to get the work done unsupervised?

Ecosse · 27/10/2020 14:16

@DameFanny

It will be the equivalent of half a day per week, so it could be taken as 1 day at home per fortnight or 2 per month.

DH and the rest of the partners believe that all staff being in the office at all times is much better for working collaboratively and inculcating a strong culture.

The firm also feels a responsibility towards the small local businesses like cafes and bars that rely on workers being in the office.

rashalert · 27/10/2020 14:20

I think it's a bit of a worry if firms start deciding that some work can be done from another country.

It's not such a big step from there to farm out work to other countries if labour there is cheaper and they don't have to observe various other rules.

Anyone whose job could easily be done in another country shouldn't really be in favour of this as. if this change does happen more frequently, you can bet your bottom dollar that in most cases, it won't benefit the UK workforce in the long term.

DameFanny · 27/10/2020 14:22

DH and the rest of the partners believe that all staff being in the office at all times is much better for working collaboratively and inculcating a strong culture

It's the easy way of doing it for sure, no substitute for genuine engagement with staff and setting goals and measurements based on productivity rather than bums on seats though.

Lilybet1980 · 27/10/2020 17:04

@DameFanny

Half a day a week? So he doesn't trust his staff to get the work done unsupervised?
It’s not always about trust. In a training environment (which most legal firms are) it’s more about coaching and development which is much better done in person. Trainees of many professions learn so much from just absorbing what senior team members around them are doing, or asking their peers and seniors for as hoc advice. You can’t replicate that remotely.
20mum · 27/10/2020 18:34

I'm not a technical expert, but at present, WFM is still not being taken seriously, and it seems akin to using a landline, and complaining you can't see the person you are speaking to. Sooner rather than later, people will take it for granted that a person applying for an office job will have a suitable set up.

A carpenter will have his own tools, or not apply for work. No doubt, instead of an amateurish set up featuring one person's bed and the next person's dog, a noise reduced, plain background, correctly filming home office will be the natural default. Presumably, multiple screens monitoring different colleagues /clients /students /trainees /customers will be an assumed wall for communication, for conferences and informal chats and observing how more experienced experts manage difficulties. This would also mean that the less formal aspects of training would be carried out from any distance, just as it would from the other side of an old style communal office.

(Office bullies and office work-dodgers are the main fans of offices. There are as many bullied victims in work places as in schools. On average, (on a self reported survey of two thousand) supposedly 'full time' old style office attenders worked only thirteen hours a week on anything productive for the employers, because of prioritising the socialising, and Amazon ordering, etc.)

Endoftether2000 · 27/10/2020 19:10

20mum WFH is often liked by some people that fit their work around their other priorities. I have been working office based all through this Pandemic. Whilst on holiday from the office I saw at least 5 people on the high street, during the summer holidays, telling their children to keep quiet as they were supposed to be working! I wouldnt mind but also whilst in the office and needing responses from Suppliers regarding deliveries when they are supposedly WFH, you cannot get hold of people during normal working hours and then get some really poor excuses as to why the delayed responses! I think your bracketed comments are a sweeping generalisation as most businesses can block Internet access to sites such as Amazon. These companies could also clamp down on socialising. Alot of workplaces I am guessing possibly get away with Bullying cultures due to the cost of taking companies to task. Also in recent years a lot of complaints by employees are often related to the thought they are being bullied, when in reality they are just being managed.

Ecosse · 27/10/2020 19:18

Absolutely- offices are essential for training and development.

Huge parts of our economy are also built on people commuting to offices and spending money on train fares and in local sandwich shops and bars.

The government should insist that every individual who worked in an office in March returns on a full-time basis ASAP unless they can demonstrate exceptional circumstances.

Aridane · 27/10/2020 19:50

@rashalert

I think it's a bit of a worry if firms start deciding that some work can be done from another country.

It's not such a big step from there to farm out work to other countries if labour there is cheaper and they don't have to observe various other rules.

Anyone whose job could easily be done in another country shouldn't really be in favour of this as. if this change does happen more frequently, you can bet your bottom dollar that in most cases, it won't benefit the UK workforce in the long term.

Thee was a whole thread on this and everyone shouted down the OP for suggezting this and oh their so important jobs were so indispensable and couldn’t possibly be offshore d
20mum · 27/10/2020 21:50

@Endoftether2000 You make a valid point, that employers could have blocked internet access to non-work sites, but virtually none ever did, and could have stopped bullying except that it was difficult to carry through, and could have better managed their staff, so gossiping and playing internet games or whatever else they were doing was better controlled. But they didn't. It was, remember, a self-monitoring survey, and the thirteen hours a week was an average.

It sounds very much as though if you had done the same survey, you would have been one of the ones putting in a full week's work. Others by definition must have been turning up for the five days, and doing even less than the thirteen hours average.

I'm not clear that the mothers you noticed, who were trying to get round the shops, plus mind the children, plus answer work calls, could have been shirking. Clearly they were not gossiping, nor failing to deal with their work, nor spending work time on playing around on the internet. The very fact that they told their children to be quiet while mummy is working proves mummy was working, and working pretty seriously despite her other workload.

Mummy could instead have been ignoring her work, for hours at a time, while standing chatting, flirting, internet surfing, watching kittens, online bargain searching or doing any other time wasting thing, all after commuting into an old fashioned communal office Queen Victoria would have recognised. The quill pen went out of favour when better methods were invented. Physically congregating in a building should also have ended when new technology made it redundant.

It wasn't your suggestion, but someone actually suggested the entire office based workforce ought to be forced to dump their children in costly childcare, risk spreading covid, block up roads or public transport needed for essential users, spend large sums of money on petrol or train fares, spend two or more hours a day commuting, and all in order to go into redundant communal office buildings, just in case sandwich bars need their custom.

I have not read recent reports, but the initial response from bosses was that their reduced workforce, working from home, were producing more useful work than ever before. Staff were happier, families were happier, and richer because of less travel and childcare cost, and productivity was perfectly fine.
(Long ago, there was something called the three day week, I think because of electricity shortage, which had the same effect. People had a four day weekend, but kept up exactly the same workload as previously spread over a five or six day week.)

However, I take your point that some firms are using covid19 as an excuse for poor service. Some firms are rubbish, some bosses are, some workers are. If they weren't using Covid19 as an excuse, it would have been something else.

Endoftether2000 · 28/10/2020 06:21

20mum in the case of the OP the person in question is in another country. They cannot do the physical aspects of the requirements of the role now so Yes they should leave. As for Working from home the clue is in the title. I don't read it as Working from home unless, you fancy popping out in your scheduled working hours to do something else that suits you better. This was the case with these people(not just mothers on the high street) telling their children to be quiet as they were supposed to be working from home whilst taking Business Calls. Regarding all your listed benefits in your post they are all at the subsequence of other people losing jobs in other sectors. It also undermines the fact that people have a choice such as Social Mobility which reduces some of these factors. Also in the 3 day week in the 70's. It was named the Winter of Discontent. Due to what it consisted of the lack of electricity and the curfew times did not enable a full weeks work load to be crammed into 3days 🤔

20mum · 28/10/2020 12:04

@Endoftether2000 I truly don't want to suggest you are inflexible, have a closed mind, or fixed ideas, (all of which isn't impossible, in other forums such as House of Commons) but what I do suspect is you are probably a great worker (again, unlike any M/P I ever heard of).

I agreed with you the Spanish worker should not dump part of her workload and scarper.

It is unlikely someone like you can comprehend the amount of skiving, shirking work dodging, and 'presenteeism' hiding in plain sight in an outdated communal office space. You are (I guess) whirling round working hard. You see one person's coat on the back of a chair, another group of colleagues chatting, several other people busily typing away at their keyboards. All is for the best in that best of all possible worlds, except that out of the entire workforce, you might be the single person putting in a week's work.

The average of thirteen hours was PRE covid19, on a self reported survey of two thousand full time office workers who all turned up in their various olden style communal offices, from Monday to Friday, nine to five. Turning up at the building did not. not, not involve doing work for the employer.

The people 'employed' but with nothing to do, or no intention of doing it, always greatly outnumber the ones (such as you?) who search out work and would leave if not busy. Most of us will have noticed it. Alexei Sayle included it in a set, with autobiographical detail of being put on the payroll of a council. He mentioned that his section of the department employed seven (or nine?) people, to do a workload needing one or two.

People who are 'nipping out of the office' may do it for days at a time, while still physically inside the communal office building. On the other hand, people who are determined not to slack off their work (like you?) are the ones who would answer every work call, all day, despite not being inside an old style communal office. You must be pretty switched on, to be in the senior position you have, so the concept of 'presenteeism' won't have escaped your attention.

The most extreme need to work from home I ever encountered was a senior laboratory worker, whose particular speciality was vital for the local health service. Her standard and speed of work astonished her own manager, (a friend of ours) who couldn't compete, and absolutely couldn't run the service without her. He was terribly worried, because she was reaching a point of having to give up the work she loved, to stay home to keep an eye on her mother.

At times, he loaned her his own microscope, so she could work from home, extremely fast, because all she needed was a microscope, and the slides which needed inspecting. (All she needed was to nip in to the hospital laboratory at intervals to collect each new supply of work, which in her case was equivalent to several other workers put together)

If she tried to work in the communal workplace, her output dropped disastrously, because she was desperately anxious about her senile mother, who could have been setting the house on fire in her absence. At home, she knew when mum was settled happily watching t.v., so she could speed through her work uninterrupted and free of worry, then be ready to go and attend to the old lady as and when needed. Multitasking is not rare, for women. Inflexible management would have lost this brilliant worker, rather than letting her WFH. Her boss, of course, knew perfectly well that forcing her to turn up each day to sit in a line of people looking down microscopes was a way to reduce her output, or, soon, to lose her altogether.

(I doubt I've convinced you, have I?)

cuparfull · 29/10/2020 02:01

@Waferbiscuit

I should add that a portion of the colleague's tasks had some physical component whether it was sorting materials or managing distribution. These tasks would have to be removed from her role and given to someone else so she can work remotely. That means someone else will be obliged to 'come in' to the office so she doesn't have to.
If that is the case then surely HR will need to review her terms and conditions and review the contract she signed. May be a cause to reduce her hours and pay. No other member of staff should have to permanently take up the slack
cuparfull · 29/10/2020 02:13

@user1487194234

I don't actually agree that if the OP is having to cover duties it is necessarily her business.

I expect my staff to do the duties that are required,as I do myself

Of course it's her business if she is being taken advantage of. I can see you'd be a bundle of laughs to work for! So it wouldn't matter to you if the work was spread unevenly and one person was carrying another?
user1487194234 · 29/10/2020 06:10

We all support each other,I just don't go for the 'that's not my job' stuff.We all muck in ,me included.
I pay over the odds and have an excellent staff retention level.
But feel free to slag me off!

JingleCatJingle · 29/10/2020 08:46

I’m presuming Ecosse is a parody account. Amusing.

DameFanny · 29/10/2020 10:14

@JingleCatJingle

I’m presuming Ecosse is a parody account. Amusing.
She also thinks the NHS should be free to move staff around the country at the drop off a hat to meet local requirements.

Not sure she's understood the difference between employment and indentured servitude tbh.

MoonJelly · 30/10/2020 08:52

DH and the rest of the partners believe that all staff being in the office at all times is much better for working collaboratively and inculcating a strong culture.

The firm also feels a responsibility towards the small local businesses like cafes and bars that rely on workers being in the office.

So do employees get sacked if they dare to turn up with their own sandwiches?