AIBU colleague should quit job now that she's moved to another country?

[Waferbiscuit]

In February colleague told our office that she was moving to Spain in the summer and would be resigning in the late Spring in time for the move. She wasn't happy in her role (which was more than a bit evident) and wanted a change - she was moving back home and would look for something there. She told everyone as wanted to be transparent about what was going on her life and didn't want her resignation to be a surprise.

Then Covid happened, colleague was furloughed from March and even though she DID physically move back to Spain she did not resign. She remained on furlough until this month. She's now back working remotely while living in another country.

She's now saying she won't resign and is lobbying to work remotely on a permanent basis. The rest of us will have to return to the office when we are expected to return; obviously she can't because, well, she lives across an ocean. If she gets to work from home permanently and we don't, because we actually live near to where we work, that feels deeply unfair.

Surely she's having a laugh? I know you can't force someone to resign, but surely carrying on like this isn't possible? HR don't know how to deal with these new situations so I get the impression they are treading lightly, which is not helpful.

OP, I don't think you are being unreasonable at all. Short answer - your colleague is taking the piss and I'm not surprised you are miffed. Longer answer: WFH is not as simple as some people would like it to be and can throw up questions of fairness such as the ones you outline. One issue is whether people really can do their jobs as well from home on a permanent basis. In many cases that isn't really optimal because, among other things, teams fray and drift apart, people lose motivation, creativity and innovation suffer etc. And, as a manager, I can definitively state that whilst WFH makes for a much easier life for many of my staff, it means more work for me - it is significantly more time consuming to manage people remotely than all in the same place. Most companies are thinking along the lines of 'hybrid' model with employees WFH part of the time and in the office a couple of days a week. Obviously this wouldn't work for someone living in Spain. It is within an employer's right to specify where work is undertaken so they could recall everyone including the colleague into the office once it is Covid-safe. As for the argument that letting her do it means your employer will let everyone do it: well. I think it is more likely the employer realises that if people don't need to be in this country to do their job, then why don't they outsource it all to Bangalore. Just to end this rather long post, I find it a bit depressing that there seem to be so many people whose first response to a lethal virus is to think about how they can do less work - sorry I mean improve their work-life balance. There seems to be little awareness of how grave our economic plight really is and how many of us will be lucky to have jobs at all, let along cushy WFH arrangements.

WFH is not the same as working from another country. The latter is fraught with risk of permanent establishment, tax and regulatory nightmares. Unless you have an office in Spain and your friend moves onto a Spanish contract or sets up as a contractor operating under an umbrella company or similar structure it’s unlikely your company can support this. They have to pay Spanish employment taxes, adhere to Spanish employment laws etc.

If HR don’t realise she’s in Spain that’s another issue (possibly misconduct).

For general WFH in UK if they consider it for some roles they should have a process to ensure its consistently applied and consider implications on other staff so be sure to raise your concerns with management.

All workplaces are going to find more people are expecting to be able to work from home, and where it’s possible why not, people should be judged on outputs not presenteeism.

However there are tax and legal issues with working from another country and your employer would be unlikely to allow this if they understand the complications.

This (on the surface) seems reasonable but trust me, the taxman wont be happy about it once HR inform them that she loves overseas. We've just had the same situation where I work and in the end the woman involved had to hand in her notice but was paid handsomely because no one had thought to check about tax status and that screwed it.

Are you in a union? If not join one. Didn't know you could be furloughed if your non resident in the uk

Was she getting furlough pay while living in another country?

Surely her ongoing employment situation is a decision for management?

I work for an international company. Staff are now working from home permanently. We are absolutely not allowed to work from abroad. It’s very complicated for tax reasons for the company, for one. We may join a local office abroad, but that means we would get the local salary and benefits - it’s a completely different contract.

If she can entirely find her work remotely what’s the problem? There’ll be a tax issue I guess, but if she’s prepared to do the necessary, why not?

I don't think you are being unreasonable at all because if people are allowed to work remotely when they are not UK citizens. There is a possibility that jobs like this could soon be open to citizens from all over the world to do remotely that would leave the people of the UK in a hell of a state its bad enough as it is and not to be encouraged. I think that due to the fact that we are now out of Europe a Spanish citizen should not be allowed to take a British job remotely to another country.

Many years ago, my DH and I each told our respective companies we were moving and would like to work remotely. His balked for a day and when they realized he was serious, set up a new policy to allow work from home. My company already had a couple of employees doing it so it wasn’t as hard of a sell. The key in both cases was being valuable enough to the company for them to agree. We could not have gone abroad for legal reasons, but working remote has been fine. There are occasional tasks I can’t complete remotely, I either have a junior staffer do them with instruction or extremely rarely, they bring me into a company location at their expense so I can complete the task at hand.

So really it’s just going to depend on how much your company values this specific employee. Does she have skills or institutional knowledge that would be hard to replace?

I am surprised HR hasnt stopped this yet, but i wonder if they might be leaving it for now and will reconsider once she has been there for over [183] days? Once she is tax resident or has worked there for a set amount of time, your office becomes liable for business rates tax on employees, as well as any other required payment (i.e. equivalents to pensions and NI) in Spain.

I am in HK. During the first lock down loads of the Aussie expats went home and worked ythere but they were told after a few months they had to come back to HK or resign because we dont have an Australian office and the firm was concerned about tax liabilities.

A friend from the UK also had this issue - he worked from his family home in Ireland for around 5 months but recently had to go back to te UK because his firm didnt want to pay Irish tax on him...

@ExpatAl

If she can entirely find her work remotely what’s the problem? There’ll be a tax issue I guess, but if she’s prepared to do the necessary, why not?

It’s not the worker who has to “do the necessary”, though. It’s the employer. It’s costly and complicated.

Op, the bottom line is even if she’s told no then you still need to go to the office,

I see this as no different to someone who physically can’t go to the office for other reasons. It doesn’t mean every one has to have the ability to work from home. She physically can’t goto the office due to location, I assume she’s good at her job, so the company is considering her request.

In addition the physical elements are likely not as regular as you’re trying to paint as otherwise it would be a no.

As said though whatever she is told doesn’t mean you don’t have to go in, being envious or petty about it isn’t going to change that.

I do take issue with the idea that because she has arranged this situation for herself based on her own circumstances that it is unfair because of the rest of you not doing the same.

Good employees do accommodate personal situations and proactive employees do request these things and argue their case. There just is a difference in people's living arrangements and a blanket fair or unfair doesn't come into it - I've had people grumble that I got my while working request after coming back from mat leave in my old job.. deal with it!

And exactly what @Bluntness100 said - the result for you would be the same regardless of the employees reasons, it does sound based on the back story you've provided that you just don't like her very much and this is influencing your opinion of her actions.

And I think we should remember that the OP had no concern for her employer regarding tax or anything, her issue is that if the lady in Spain stayed there then it would be unfair for the rest of them, which I don't think is right.

It does sound like she is unlikely to stay there anyway OP so I would leave her to it.

She can only do her work from home by not doing some parts, and hoping others pick those aspects up. Why is this OK?

Tax and employment rules will be the major barrier to this.

That's not your business to sort out though (unless you're HR)

Oh goodness OP there’s so many rude people on here always! Of course it’s got something to do with you or you wouldn’t be posting! Sorry you’re having such a hard time! Sounds very unfair to me though I don’t know how to fix it. Is it too simple to say that surely the answer is no you can’t work from home full time as your role doesn’t allow that so if you’re not fulfilling your role then you can’t keep the job? Good luck!

The employment law/tax implications are huge.

DH’s employer started by agreeing for a couple of people, with genuine compassionate reasons, to work from Europe, but pretty soon clamped down. WFH, no problem. Work from another, many problems.

The fact that this employee was already thinking of leaving raises some red flags. It may be that they just need to gain some qualifying employment wherever they are, and your HR people could find themselves in a morass of redundancy/discrimination claims using a different legal system and, possibly not covered by and legal insurance.

Perhaps a short email to your boss or to HR saying that you have heard that working overseas can cause problems and they may like to check. Nothing about the person themselves.

My colleague has just moved abroad and taken a 2 year career break. We can do 80% wfh but not 100%. She is a strong worker and they could probably have amended her job to allow her to work remotely, but didn't because it would set a precedent. It is unfair. IMO HR need to go down the route of you being physically in work at least X days per month. I had a colleague (pre COVID) who commuted weekly from Portugal! Clearly that isn't possible now though. If they allow her to wfh full time, the rest if you could put in similar requests and it could get far more messy for HR. I fact I'd almost be tempted to put in a request now, saying you want to relocate!

I'm self employed and often work from one of my other properties in uk and abroad. My business is set up so that I can do that, and other than time difference ( if I'm in NYC ) it's all good .

If I could only do this because someone else was going in to a set office so that I could swan about I'd feel a bit guilty and offer a portion of my work week salary to cover that other person's time to 'finish my role' .

Maybe this should be the approach your colleague might take if it's suggested ? If they don't it's a tad selfish, I agree.

You should use the tack with HR that she can only WFH if she is "supported" in the office by someone else who must complete the tasks that she is unable to do by being absent. Therefore she could opt to take on additional roles she can complete from home relieving you of some of your workload to absorb the tasks WFH do not allow her to undertake. Obviously you could the use this as a negotiation point to increase your pay.
Living in one country and working in another is possible, I do it but my role traditionally allows it. There are alot of taxation, national insurance, inheritance tax etc. issues to work around and involve alot of government form filling. As these situations are not normal then many people cannot give you a straight answer to may questions and sorting them out is always long winded.

This would piss me off too.
OP I’d tell HR that you too are moving, maybe to the other end of the UK, and tell them you’ll be working from home . See what happens!