AIBU colleague should quit job now that she's moved to another country?

[Waferbiscuit]

In February colleague told our office that she was moving to Spain in the summer and would be resigning in the late Spring in time for the move. She wasn't happy in her role (which was more than a bit evident) and wanted a change - she was moving back home and would look for something there. She told everyone as wanted to be transparent about what was going on her life and didn't want her resignation to be a surprise.

Then Covid happened, colleague was furloughed from March and even though she DID physically move back to Spain she did not resign. She remained on furlough until this month. She's now back working remotely while living in another country.

She's now saying she won't resign and is lobbying to work remotely on a permanent basis. The rest of us will have to return to the office when we are expected to return; obviously she can't because, well, she lives across an ocean. If she gets to work from home permanently and we don't, because we actually live near to where we work, that feels deeply unfair.

Surely she's having a laugh? I know you can't force someone to resign, but surely carrying on like this isn't possible? HR don't know how to deal with these new situations so I get the impression they are treading lightly, which is not helpful.

Sooner all the WFH jobs are moved to India the better - stop all the complaining

@swannin don't worry, as long as your DH is on a UK payroll he can be furloughed. A person can be any nationality or resident in any country but as long as they work for a UK company then can be furloughed.

Senior HR person here.

Staff who can’t fulfil their contracts/job descriptions because they’ve taken it upon themselves to move away will find themselves in breach of contract and dismissed in due course.

Some staff have a contractual travel time in order to deliver on call services. Others have been doing some/all of their usual work from home but not the rest. When they are asked to come back to work and say they can’t because they have moved away/abroad there will be ructions. Most of our staff (NHS) would be required on site at times even if just to do photocopying, none have agreed WFH contracts so they’re going to be in trouble if they’ve made assumptions.

Lots of global companies have people based in one country working for an entity working in another.

It’s not as straightforward as simply having someone relocate and carry on as before but it’s not complex to the point of impossibility. Your employer will decide whether it’s worth it and if it’s not then your colleague will either choose to resign or will be fired because she can no longer meet her contractual obligations.

OP you sound pretty envious and bitter, you’d be better off focussing on what you want and figuring out how you can achieve that rather than focussing on others. Comparison is the thief of joy and all.

@LilyWater jealously - wanting something that someone else has. Sounds like a Pretty valid reaction.

@Feminist10101 hey I have a hr question. We were supposed to go back to the office. My BAME colleagues had a risk assessment and no one has asked me about my weight - a covid risk factor. Should I be allowed to refuse to go back to the office? Not trolling, just I don’t want to be the only team member going back lol.

Have the people who are calling OP jealous and bitter missed the part where OP will have extra duties if her colleague NEVER comes into the office? There is a task they take turns to do and it can only be done in the office so if the colleague can’t do it the others will have to cover for her

@Waferbiscuit just wait a few months, I’m sure she will get booted

If it starts to affect you or your other colleagues, or if your employer asks for your opinion, you can then express your concerns about disparity and the fact that you'll be doing more of the unpleasant work in order to cover for the colleague living abroad. Maybe it can be a bargaining chip to win a raise or some other incentive to compensate you and/or the other colleagues.

I think it's entirely up to the employer to decide. I also think your colleague will be responsible for her own tax... not sure about post Brexit.

(I recently went for an interview ... we did talk about remote working and was told that I can work from wherever I please as long as I am there for training and other occasional meetings!
I really think it's a little insight into the work place post covid-19... shame about Brexit.)

Then i think working from home should open up to everyone. It all just played out well for her.

your company will be liable for spanish tax. It's a huge problem. My organisation had a lot of people on short contracts who worked from overseas delivering on line teaching, they were all made redundant.

Any of us involved in recruitment had to ENSURE that people were physically located in the UK in order to employ them - even though all of the work was online. We lost some of our best people, but the tax implications for the organisation were hugely problematic.

@Waferbiscuit

*HR don't know how to deal with these new situations Why? It's quite straightforward.*

Our flexible working policy currently doesn't allow 100% WFH. The policy hasn't yet changed. So if our policy doesn't allow it, you'd think she wouldn't be able to continue in her role. But it's public sector and I don't think you can readily or easily fire someone in these circumstances.

Yes you can.

The public sector might fanny about and never fire anyone but it's perfectly possible.

Should the company not be willing to accommodate the situation...

Request that she return to the office X days per week to undertake the physical elements of the job and in line with their own WFH policy. When she declines, give her a verbal warning. Request again the next week, written warning and basically resulting in being fired for refusing to undertake reasonable aspects of the job in line with their contract.

Most companies would generally reach a compromise agreement before this point to save the management time in dealing with it, but they don't have to.

There are both tax and social security implications for her and the employer if she does this.

I know a few people who are working remotely from Spain, and another who just got permission to do so as well going forward.

Depends on the person and the role. Some are worth keeping on and companies will bend over backwards to do so.

here's some of the legal stuff - app.croneri.co.uk/topics/income-tax-employees-working-abroad/indepth

Sometimes people who ask for different working conditions pave the way for change within the organisation. If hers is approved and you want to WFH full time then the precedent is set and your negotiation should be easier.

A lot of tax and legal issues here, employer could find themselves uncompliant with Spanish tax and employment law. It's more than just a personal tax issue.

[quote Georgeoftheinternet]@Feminist10101 hey I have a hr question. We were supposed to go back to the office. My BAME colleagues had a risk assessment and no one has asked me about my weight - a covid risk factor. Should I be allowed to refuse to go back to the office? Not trolling, just I don’t want to be the only team member going back lol.[/quote]
They should have a risk assessment covering all of the known risk factors. Have you asked for one? It won’t mean that anyone with one of them can’t return to the office, by the way.

The public sector might fanny about and never fire anyone but it's perfectly possible.

This is a myth. I’ve overseen dismissals in just about every public sector organisation I’ve worked for.

One of my team unilaterally moved far away during covid times. Seemed to think it would force me into agreeing permanent working from home. It won’t. Unbeknown to him I have an existing staff member (different team) who lives in Spain and flies at her own expense to the uk monthly for a week (outside covid times) to do the office based aspects of her role. She pays her own travel and accommodation. And I think HR don’t pay her London weighting because she isn’t London based.

So we have precedent.

When the office staff return, he will be expected to return with them. His travel from (from far far away) and accommodation and cost isn’t my problem.

@Doveyouknow

I am surprised that your employer allows this. It's normally not allowed as the tax implications are complex. Generally if someone is resident and working in a country they need to pay tax there. Most firms can't be bothered to sort this out for someone who is abroad as the rules differ from country to country

They don't have to. Her primary economic relationship is in the UK. She will therefore be taxed in the UK. She will have the same employment rights as anyone in the UK, under UK law. If there is a tax liability in Spain then it will be her responsibility to sort that out, not her employers. The tax implications are not complex, it's easy and it's very common.

I agree with you OP. An ex colleague did this, moving to France. It left those in the office to pick up all her tasks that she couldn't physically do as she is in a differnent country, so increased all our workloads; she got to avoid the tedium, oversight and stress of physically being in the office and being watched by the boss (eg making sure you are on time, don't take more than an hour lunch, don't make personal phone calls etc - half the time when you phoned her she didn't answer); and the company paid for her to periodically come back for meetings, yet none of us got our commute to work paid for in any way. It was all very unfair, and none of us were allowed to WFH because we lived within commuting distance.

@KatherineJaneway

It goes so much deeper than that. Pension rights ? Redundancy rights ? Maternity rights ?

Probably not thought that far ahead.

IIRC it is 83 or 86 days you can work outside the UK without tax implications but things could have changed since I was last involved in that line of work.

Ultimately, my advice would be to never employ anyone that I couldn't be sure was subject to UK criminal law. For a constellation of reasons, but the main one being that directors of companies can accrue criminal liabilities themselves and it would be odd that they could be in such a position whilst one (or more) of their employees isn't.

Imagine if the MN intern that stole loads of personal data from MN was physically located in (say) Spain ? What would the landscape for criminal proceedings look like ? (Of even more importance moving forward with the loss of the UKs access to the EAW).

There are swathes of people in business whose job entails solely having to point out the "what ifs" to gung-ho employers who have been seduced by the whole "disruptor" bollocks peddled by snake oil salespersons. This is almost the poster child for a situation where you really shouldn't be treading unless you have no fear of dragons.

She might want to, but it is likely to throw up a number of tax issues. If her employer allowed it, they might be regarded as having a base in Spain and liable for taxes there. And it raises issues for her too around tax and NI. Where I work a few people have asked to work from abroad and it's been a flat no.