AIBU colleague should quit job now that she's moved to another country?

[Waferbiscuit]

In February colleague told our office that she was moving to Spain in the summer and would be resigning in the late Spring in time for the move. She wasn't happy in her role (which was more than a bit evident) and wanted a change - she was moving back home and would look for something there. She told everyone as wanted to be transparent about what was going on her life and didn't want her resignation to be a surprise.

Then Covid happened, colleague was furloughed from March and even though she DID physically move back to Spain she did not resign. She remained on furlough until this month. She's now back working remotely while living in another country.

She's now saying she won't resign and is lobbying to work remotely on a permanent basis. The rest of us will have to return to the office when we are expected to return; obviously she can't because, well, she lives across an ocean. If she gets to work from home permanently and we don't, because we actually live near to where we work, that feels deeply unfair.

Surely she's having a laugh? I know you can't force someone to resign, but surely carrying on like this isn't possible? HR don't know how to deal with these new situations so I get the impression they are treading lightly, which is not helpful.

I think you're catastrophising. You’ve got no idea if they’ll allow her to remain 100% remote or not - you’ve just decided that they are, even though it’s against policy, and they’ll give you all of the shitty bits of her work to do. Even though lots of people have told you it’s a red tape nightmare for employers if their direct employees are permanently resident overseas (it’s different if they are technically UK-resident but living temporarily outside of UK). It will get even harder after 1st January.

Isn’t it more likely that they will say “sorry, policy says nobody can be 100% remote” and find somebody else? They can just say she needs to be in on 1st Nov, and when she doesn’t turn up, that’s an unauthorised absence, and they can get on with sacking her (yes there is a process, but if she has ghosted them it isn’t a particularly difficult process). You are not paid for unauthorised absences, so there no reason for her to spin it out either.

As pp have said, she hasn't figured out, or wants to dodge, the tax implications of a permanent move.

It goes so much deeper than that. Pension rights ? Redundancy rights ? Maternity rights ?

We’re not allowed to work for another country for more than 4 months because of the tax liabilities it incurs for both the individual and our employer. Your employer should be considering this carefully - and if too expensive to get advice, then probably putting a stop to this.

Correction - no more than 4 weeks in a year. Not a hard and fast rule but one put in place based on detailed exploration of the issues.

@Lovelydovey

Correction - no more than 4 weeks in a year. Not a hard and fast rule but one put in place based on detailed exploration of the issues.

Interesting. I'm assuming that's not related to countries that have a double tax treaty?

I've worked remotely for a UK employer for years. Salaried, PAYE, popped me on an NT tax code and my Spanish accountant sorts it out so I pay the tax at my end.

Nothing complex about it at all.

But that's under a country that has a double tax treaty with the UK - maybe your company was thinking about countries like the US.

Yep, if it's more than a certain amount of weeks in the year, the employer has to inform both HRMC and the country the employee is living in- it's possible they will want tax paying to them. So it isn't as simple as just do it from anywhere long term, even despite the logistical issues such as not being able to do the whole job when things are a bit more 'normal'.

"I can't do it so she shouldn't be able to do it! IT'S NOT FAIR, WAH!" = something most of us grow out of by age 13 or so

I am surprised that your employer allows this. It's normally not allowed as the tax implications are complex. Generally if someone is resident and working in a country they need to pay tax there. Most firms can't be bothered to sort this out for someone who is abroad as the rules differ from country to country

I've worked remotely for a UK employer for years. Salaried, PAYE, popped me on an NT tax code and my Spanish accountant sorts it out so I pay the tax at my end.

Well yes, you have a Spanish account and your employer must have something in place with HRMC- its unlikely OPs employer has a Spanish accountant, and it's unclear whether the employee has squared it away; if she has with her employer then fair enough, if she hasn't and is hoping they won't mind, it will cause problems for them.

Accountant*

"I can't do it so she shouldn't be able to do it! IT'S NOT FAIR, WAH!" = something most of us grow out of by age 13 or so

I really don't think that I'm saying this at all. I've provided reasonable reasons for why offering this to said colleague would be unfair on others. I'm quite sure other colleagues would be aggrieved about this situation.

Why is it to do with her - because her employer is telling her she has to go back to the office for operational needs yet her work colleague doesn’t. As offices may/may not go back to the office this is a new president

I really don't see the issue if she can do her job remotely. This is going to be the future for many types of role. Companies will need to adapt.

If the rest of you are required to be physically present, and she is not, then I don't think you are being unreasonable. If the rest of you can also ask to remote work indefinitely, then you are being a little unreasonable.

@Doveyouknow

I am surprised that your employer allows this. It's normally not allowed as the tax implications are complex. Generally if someone is resident and working in a country they need to pay tax there. Most firms can't be bothered to sort this out for someone who is abroad as the rules differ from country to country

Tax implications are the more obvious gotchas. But data protection, intellectual property and indeed any liability issues are also fraught with enough wrinkles to make an entire legal practice book a bonus dinner.

Personally I wouldn't countenance any employee that was beyond the reach of the UK law for what I hope are pretty obvious reasons. Which makes me suspect the OP firms are playing the "make it up as we go along" strategy. Which once you find evidence of it in one area, is always - always - to be found elsewhere in the organisation.

@Redwinestillfine

I really don't see the issue if she can do her job remotely. This is going to be the future for many types of role. Companies will need to adapt.

There is a world of difference between working in a different location in the same country, and trying to do the same in a different jurisdiction.

I suggest that before companies need to adapt, the law does. Bearing in mind we have no idea what the future of UK and Spanish relationships will be like. I'm of an age to remember when it was impossible to extradite people from Spain (for example). Would any company really be happy with an employee that could possible fleece them of millions and then stick their tongue out saying "Na nah na nah na" ?

I expect the person who would have to take over her tasks which can't be don remotely could expect a pretty good whack added on to their salary. Which of course would be taken off hers?

I agree, OP. Salaried postions are not the same as freelance, and employing people who live in the EU while working in the UK is presumably about to get more rather than less complicated. Nobody has a right to continue to work entirely remotely if the policy hasn't changed, so at the very least her contract should be re-written, and others should be eligible for pay increases inconsideration of any of the work they must pick up that she is unable or unwilling to undertake in the office. Alternatively, everybody should be permitted to work 100% remotely. Sauce for the goose, right?
Ultimately up to management but it shouldn't be one rule for her and another for everybody else.

@Waferbiscuit

"I can't do it so she shouldn't be able to do it! IT'S NOT FAIR, WAH!" = something most of us grow out of by age 13 or so

I really don't think that I'm saying this at all. I've provided reasonable reasons for why offering this to said colleague would be unfair on others. I'm quite sure other colleagues would be aggrieved about this situation.

All you've really provided is ifs, buts and maybes.

Wait and see what happens and how HR handle it, before getting annoyed that this woman has a decent chance of keeping her job.

@Trainchoose

I've worked remotely for a UK employer for years. Salaried, PAYE, popped me on an NT tax code and my Spanish accountant sorts it out so I pay the tax at my end.

Well yes, you have a Spanish account and your employer must have something in place with HRMC- its unlikely OPs employer has a Spanish accountant, and it's unclear whether the employee has squared it away; if she has with her employer then fair enough, if she hasn't and is hoping they won't mind, it will cause problems for them.

Not sure what you're saying here...

Is your point that it's bad not to pay tax?

Yes, I made appropriate arrangements when I moved to another country so I wasn't committing tax fraud.

OP's colleague can do that too.

Nobody's just 'born' with a Spanish accountant - you hire one when you decide to make a life-changing overseas move

And you're right, we don't know the colleague's tax status, so this is all a bit of an arbitrary conversation, no? Especially since her colleague's tax status is also absolutely none of the OP's business!

Maybe the management consider changing her contract worthwhile to keep her.

It goes so much deeper than that. Pension rights ? Redundancy rights ? Maternity rights ?

Probably not thought that far ahead.

IIRC it is 83 or 86 days you can work outside the UK without tax implications but things could have changed since I was last involved in that line of work.

I actually think yanbu she lives in another country , isn't that against the rules for furloughed?

I never heard of this...my dh works for a U.K. company and we don't live in the U.K. but he was furloughed

OP, put yourself in her shoes. Are you honestly saying you wouldn't do the same thing?

If you're concerned about potential impact on your own work, speak directly with your team leader. Not sure why you're so preoccupied with the colleague herself Remember that jealousy never did anyone any good.

Let her case go through and set a precedent for anyone that wants the same thing - if it works for the company and works for the employees then no problem. We have had several members of staff do this (very large company), I have no issues with it because I am happy to "piggy back" off their cases and work from home, albeit in the UK.