Family and money - help!

[notdawn]

I will try and keep this as brief as possible - but really would like some candid advice.

Towards the end of last year my sister and her now ex husband wanted to put their house on the market. Before they did my husband offered them full asking of the agents valuation. In all honesty he probably slightly overpaid.

My husband is a property developer and even when they were together my husband made it clear that if they ever wanted to sell to give us first refusal. We own the house next door (we don't live there) and with the land there was always going be a fairly decent opportunity to develop.

Anyway as it was going through my sister started making comments about how much money we would be making from the deal. The truth is she had and has no idea how much money we will or wont make as she has no idea about building costs, planning costs, marketing costs etc - and I just put it down to her going through a divorce.

Anyway the build was on hold for a couple of months - but the flats where our houses once were will be going on the market Monday and she has been quite vocal about how much money we will make and how we couldn't have done it without her.

AIBU - I mean she wanted to sell her house and we gave her asking price?

We are very close, our kids are close, I am not sure why she is being like this. I suggested to my husband possibly a smallish payment once they are sold - but he is saying absolutely no way.

Thoughts?

If your sister asks you to do something, there's a bit more pressure and expectation than if a total stranger did the same. She would have caused some kind of reaction if she'd refused.

How can you know that? She was at liberty to say she wanted to test the open market, to see what the maximum attainable price would be (maybe a little unfair on potential buyers having their hopes got up fruitlessly); but I don't see why it's unreasonable for family members to hope that, if they can match that offer for something you're disposing of regardless, you would allow them to buy it from you for that top price rather than a stranger. By generously increasing the valuer's price by £100K plus, as well as saving her considerable estate agency fees, I don't quite see how that makes them the bad guys.

For the avoidance of doubt - she got far more with us than she would have with anybody else. Far more.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

If your sister asks you to do something, there's a bit more pressure and expectation than if a total stranger did the same. She would have caused some kind of reaction if she'd refused.

How can you know that? She was at liberty to say she wanted to test the open market, to see what the maximum attainable price would be (maybe a little unfair on potential buyers having their hopes got up fruitlessly); but I don't see why it's unreasonable for family members to hope that, if they can match that offer for something you're disposing of regardless, you would allow them to buy it from you for that top price rather than a stranger. By generously increasing the valuer's price by £100K plus, as well as saving her considerable estate agency fees, I don't quite see how that makes them the bad guys.

How can you know that?

I don't see why it's unreasonable for family members to hope that, if they can match that offer for something you're disposing of regardless, you would allowthemto buy it from you for that top price rather than a stranger.

I suspect that the thought process you used to conclude that one should expect a family member to accept an objectively good deal is the same one I used to conclude that the sister probably felt pressure to do it despite her emotional investment.

@notdawn

For the avoidance of doubt - she got far more with us than she would have with anybody else. Far more.

Well, you don't know that as it never went to the open market, but to be fair, neither does she. Still, her difficulties with this clearly aren't related to the selling price.

There really is a reason people are often wary about doing business with family.

Her ex husband is a shrewd and successful man. When we made our offer he snapped it up and didn’t even let it go to market.

He knew full well it wouldn’t be bettered.

@ShebaShimmyShake

With all due respect I do know that.

[quote notdawn]@ShebaShimmyShake

With all due respect I do know that.[/quote]
Well then...why say in your OP that you're "not sure why she is being like this"?

When we made our offer he snapped it up and didn’t even let it go to market.

And what did his ex, your sister, think?

I can’t fathom it.

@ShebaShimmyShake

She’s not silly either she knew it was the best deal.

@notdawn

I can’t fathom it.

Ok...but you do know the reason why people often avoid doing business with family? I assumed that was what you were referring to when you said you "do know that", did you mean you knew something else?

Even if I misunderstood you...you can't fathom why your sister might not be happy? I mean, you may not think it's a very good reason, but surely you can see what the reason is?

She's just being an arsey cow and hoping she can guilt trip you into giving her some of the proceeds.

She isn't actually entitled to anything - she needed to sell her house at the asking price and she got that.
Would she be pursuing a large company if they had bought her home and redeveloped?

In your shoes i'd just ignore her......only share in a way that feels right to you - if you want to.

I can fully understand there might be some jealously and bitterness - but the fact remains the best thing for her and her children was selling it to us.

[quote notdawn]@ShebaShimmyShake

She’s not silly either she knew it was the best deal.[/quote]
Yes but that doesn't mean she was happy about it. I mean, that's the entire point of the thread!

She may know it was the best deal she could get but for her it's not purely financial, otherwise she'd be as happy as her ex. Selling it for development to a family member changes the dynamic. She may honestly have been happier selling for less to a dispassionate stranger. She's clearly not happy now! But when family ask you to do something, it's harder to say no. Especially if, as you are very aware, you're offering her a lot of money. Makes it look less reasonable to refuse.

She got the full asking price, plus a little. And a quick sale. She should be grateful. I would be grateful in her position. How much you make from it is none of her business, involving or informing her further would blur that line. Just be clear and assertive. It is actually kinder. She chose to sell. She needs to move on. Holding a grievance is pointless and bad for her health and relationships.

@notdawn

I can fully understand there might be some jealously and bitterness - but the fact remains the best thing for her and her children was selling it to us.

Well then, I guess you'll just have to wait for her to conclude the same thing, if it's so unarguably otherwise. And perhaps the jealousy and bitterness is worth the purchase for you too.

You do seem unwilling to realise her emotional investment in this situation.

Have you spoken to her yet?

She is delusional and bitter. She’s somehow got it into her head that this profit was somehow the profit she could have had; she’s made it into yet another disaster in her life. But the reality is, she isn’t a property developer. She didn’t have the funds, the skill or the vision to take on this development - and of course she didn’t have your house and the plot it stood on either. She’s acting like you’ve stolen an opportunity she never actually had. She DID have an opportunity, however, to ask for more money at the time. She didn’t take it.

The fact is that you HAVE profited from the breakdown of her marriage. That is a fact and she is entitled to feel however she likes about that. Your husband “made it clear” he was to have first refusal and now “you are making clear” that her feelings are unreasonable. It’s patronising and cold hearted.

Well isn’t it a fact that the sister profited from selling to a developer who was willing to pay top whack rather than trying to negotiate her down - because he was her brother-in-law? Any commercial developer would have seen that the sale was due to divorce and knocked a minimum of 10% off because they’d know the vendors needed a quick sale. If OP has ‘profited’ from her sister, the reverse is also true.

@ShebaShimmyShake - you seem to think the OP and her husband somehow emotionally blackmailed the sister into accepting an above asking price offer, while the sister is a mousy little thing too scared to cause a family row. If the crux of your argument is ‘But she’s your siiiiiister!!! ’, couldn’t you also argue that the sister should have said, ‘Oh no, I wouldn’t dream of expecting family to pay over the odds when no one else would’?

OP got the deal she wanted; so did her sister. The only issue is that sister has decided, too late, that her deal wasn’t good enough.

Spoken with her - went quite well.

I asked her why she kept mentioning it. She said she she always wanted to do the development together. I might add this is the first time she has ever mentioned it. I didn’t say this to her - but she sold 17 months again and even if we get rid of the flats and complete quickly lots going to be near on 2 years before we see any return not to mention the larger outlay to get the build done. She and her ex needed the money there and then to purchase two properties so this wasn’t a realistic option.

I did mention that what we hope to make is now where near what she things I will make - and she seemed surprised by the top line figure so I hope that helps a little bit.

I said once they are all sold we will all go away somewhere (COVID) permitting which she said would be nice.

Went as well as can he expected.

You paid over the odds, saved them money on selling fees and took all the risk that you would get the planning permission needed. I don't think you have done anything wrong.

Normally, profits spilt one third developer, one third land owner, one third contractor.

The OP is the landowner. Her sister sold it to her.

Well, that sounds like a positive outcome. If she really truly hasn't ever mentioned wanting to go into business together, it might be worth asking why she didn't mention it or feel that she could mention it.

Sorry on phone - lot of typos above!

Probably best not to go into business with her in the future by the way.

ShebaShimmyShake- you seem to think the OP and her husband somehow emotionally blackmailed the sister into accepting an above asking price offer, while the sister is a mousy little thing too scared to cause a family row. If the crux of your argument is ‘But she’s yoursiiiiiister!!!’, couldn’t you also argue that the sister should have said, ‘Oh no, I wouldn’t dream of expecting family to pay over the odds when no one else would’?

No, I just understand why the sister might not be feeling overjoyed despite objectively getting a good deal, and I am aware that it's harder to say no to family, especially when they offer you a lot so you can't actually claim you're making the decision on business grounds. Harder still when the family claims not to understand what you might be upset about. Mixing business and family is risky, as OP has found out.

I'm not making an "argument", but OP initially said she wasn't sure why her sister wasn't happy. I have a theory as to why.