To find this definition of working class offensive?

[popcorndreams]

I work in the creative sector which is not very diverse and I feel has a particular issue with class diversity. I've come across something in application info, saying they are looking for applications from people who are from working class backgrounds and I'm really not sure on their definition.

I'm not sure what I'd say my class background it. My grandad was a miner and grandma a cleaner. One of my parents was in a skilled manual job before training to become a teacher, in the time before you had to have a degree. My mam left school at 16 and has worked her way up in scientific research. So my parents are probably from working class homes and did more middle class jobs but I wouldn't think of them as middle class. Certainly not in terms of anything other than work and that is not derogatory. I would probably have said my background was working class. I was first in my family to go to uni.

Anyway so this description: If you are from a working class or lower socio-economic background, you will most likely have been to state school, might have received free school meals as a child, or had a precarious household income when you were growing up. You might have grown up in the care system, been a young carer, or been the first in your family to go to university. If you are from a working class background you are more likely to face intersecting barriers in society, experiencing racism, ableism and other forms of discrimination.

I find this a bit offensive as I'd say this isn't working class, it's a deprived background. Th majority of working class people do not have children in care. Growing up may people were not on very high incomes but they were still fairly steady does this make you not working class? I know it's not saying all of these things are needed to be from a working class background but I think its not actually a description of a working class background.

I think the key here is that the point of this kind of thing is to make people feel like they belong in the sector. If the intention is there, but the way it’s expressed makes people feel defensive, and like they’re being looked down on, then it’s not having the desired effect.

I think it’s good that they mention certain experiences like free school meals because the idea of ‘working class’ can be quite hard to pin down, and experiencing the care system is something that isn’t often named as a challenge in entering certain sectors. But I think the wording could do with a bit of a rewrite because I doubt you’re the only person to have found it a bit othering, OP. I work in the arts, and it’s not just people from really deprived backgrounds that are lacking in the sector, even the more secure working class backgrounds are underrepresented.

I don't think it's a great description. Working class isn't quite the same thing as from a deprived or poor background though they can also overlap. I think probably what they are actually looking for is people from both those demographics.

I also would probably not call you working class OP, I would say your family background is working class but your own growing up was middle class. But it shows in a way how tricky it is to define these things over generations - for example university. In my parents generation lots of middle class people in office work had never been to university, and also some jobs have arguably changed their designation over the years. Women's jobs could be difficult to classify as well, women from all kinds of backgrounds went into nursing for example, though it was a working class sort of job. Now being an RN a solid middle class job though the various sorts of practical and other care jobs that used to be done by RNs are working class.

I guess it comes own to why they are offering these opportunities, by giving a definition at least they show who they are seeking to offer this too so applicants know in advance and can decide if they meet the criteria.

@flaviaritt

But then they ask about if you got your fees paid mainly by scholarship or something like that. I think that's a good one re class

Most scholarships are taken up by middle class children.

It's so far off my radar I have no idea how these things work so I'll take your word for it. As it doesn't apply to me I did read the question in detail. It was an example of a question on a diversity form Iver previously completed. But thanks for pointing out my mistake on something I know nothing about, nor claimed too. Hope you feel better now.

Sounds like they got their definition of working class from an Eastenders Christmas special episode.

I think they'd be better to leave class out of it actually and deal with economic barriers to getting into that sector. It really doesn't matter what kind of environment you grew up in, if you've not had the money to take advantage of opportunities you haven't, and if you have, you don't need the help. If you follow the money it will tend to broaden the class representation anyway.

When they focus on class like that I am suspicious that they don't want to do anything concrete (like pay people for intern work) but are just looking to add superficial diversity by getting some different accents into the mix.

Popcorn:

Your reply is plain rude. I’ve had a shit day tbh so I’m getting off your thread before I am as rude as you.

I agree but MN has always conflated low income with abuse and neglect.

Well it does say working class or lower socio-economic background. And we don't really have a class for non-working families. I agree that care experience isn't about class and actually neither is being a young carer, but those two things in themselves may be something that organisations want to prioritise.

I also think the ' owning your own home' thing that some posters have mentioned is interesting. Where I grew up, no-one owned their own house. Then rent to buy came in and everyone's mum and dad bought their house, and lots of my peer group bought council houses, but now no-one's DCs can afford houses because there's no council housing to rent/buy... most of those people would still class themselves as WC though.

I read it as some working class or lower socio economic background.
There are also several mights in there too.
You may be wc and not experienced any of those things, or maybe just one or two.
I'm wc and can't see a problem, it's true for so many.

As someone who grew up working class and still is, I don't find it offensive.

But at the same time I think you would know if you're working class? Like if you have to question it you're probably not

It doesn't offend me. It describes various indicators that might apply, it's not an exhaustive list.

Whilst you may be cringing, I think this is a real step in the right direction - and I also firmly believe the best way to change an organisation is from within. Identify yourself as working class in the application process, and once (fingers crossed) you have the job, then feedback on how they can improve their definition of working class. You were the first in your family to go to university - it makes a huge difference.

It is a huge disadvantage in the work place to now have the middle class connections and guidance to guide you through the politics of work. I see this much more clearly looking back on my career, in my twenties I was much more naive.

I'm from a deprived background and recognise what you're saying , it's a lazy short hand i think and while I'm actually on the other side of it i can see why a bog standard working class family might balk at being described in that way.

I think the descriptions lump low income and deprived together - but OP I think this shows an important temporal distinction.

In the past, you could be a lower income family and still have access to good state housing, decent state education, and wages were more in the line with the cost of living. You could have a great life on a lower wage is what I’m saying.

These days, it’s very different. At least where I am in the south East, if you are on a low wage lots of things are out of your reach. Low income is closer to deprived than it was before.

Also, there was a lot of ‘movement’ in terms of economic class in previous generations. I would have called your parents middle class because of their jobs, but am aware that there is deep cultural stuff around this (I’m not from the UK) - the kind of change you parents made in their economic status is not as available to people today.

But in conclusion, YABU for being offended by a form. I literally have to tick “other” for most categories on forms like that because of my race, and that feels shit, literally being called an “other” like I’m some kind of “thing” - so don’t dwell on it too much OP! And if you get the job, change the wording

@flaviaritt

Popcorn:

Your reply is plain rude. I’ve had a shit day tbh so I’m getting off your thread before I am as rude as you.

Ok. Don't take your shit day out on me. Before you accuse me of being rude. Think about whether it's rude to select a part of someone's post and the write a sentence about how they're wrong with no further details. But yep it's me.

They'd have been better off referring to lower socio-economic and leaving out "working class" which I think has a more subtle, cultural meaning and people will interpret it in different ways. I work for a University and we are very active in trying to attract and admit applicants from relatively economically deprived postcodes, postcodes with low progression to university, from low performing schools, and care leavers. The measures are agreed with OfS. We don't ever used terms middle class, working class etc. They'd be better off using a similar set of metrics.

But all those things are true. Working class children might have had free school meals, they might have had a low income. Going to state school and being the first to go to uni is common for working class and middle class children, so that’s applicable. And it even specifies “or lower-socio economic background”.

It’s certainly not lumping together the working classes with poverty, or saying working class children must have experienced these things.

Anyway, with a teacher and a scientist as parents, I’d put you down as middle class. It’s irrelevant what jobs your grandparents had. I know someone whose parents grew up in terrible poverty- her dad became a manual labourer and her mum was a housewife. But this woman works very high up in a big City firm. Her children live with all the benefits of large wealth, private education and multiple homes. You couldn’t say they’re working class just because their grandparents were.

I tend to think that if you’re working class, you know you’re working class.

(Although, it’s not like class is quantifiable so they’ll largely be going on everyone’s say-so)

My DH and I live on the outskirts of Glasgow and earn a good amount of money between us. But we work everyday for it sooooooo we’re working class. Maybe nearer the middle to top end of it but we bloody work hard so defo working class

Think about whether it's rude to select a part of someone's post and the write a sentence about how they're wrong with no further details. But yep it's me.

Of course it wasn’t rude. I was contributing and commenting on a common misunderstanding. It’s a discussion, isn’t it? Your reply was aggressive. Anyway, have a good evening because I really don’t wish to take my shit day out on you by telling you how your post actually felt on the reading end and what it made me think.

If one of your parents was a teacher you are as solidly middle middle class as can be. Not wealthy but definitely middle class

My alternative description - Working class is a label used to describe a rich heritage of values evolved from the challenges posed by those working in Britain during the industrial revolution. Characteristic values include loyalty, togetherness and hard work. Those typically “working class” aspire to “ stick together”, be honest and generally live a life that is honourable.
Recently, due to class mobility, we see a shift in aspiration to a more middle class definition that values education and ownership.
The working class are often more easily impacted by issues resulting from poverty because in general they have less money and so have to make fewer mistakes than those higher up the class system in order to fall victim to poverty.

The problem is that working class is now often used either to describe people living with deprivation or purely on a wealth basis. This is because most of the good working class jobs are gone.

My parents are working class but we weren't living in poverty. My dad was a factory worker, the job was secure, pay was good and overtime plentiful. We were not rolling in it by any means but there were always clean clothes on my back, shoes on my feet, a hot meal at teatime and a warm bed at night.

I can't honestly describe myself as working class, perhaps "from a working class background". It is clear that going to university was the watershed where I became middle class. My life as an educated professional is so different to some of my old school friends that we are really almost on different planets now.

@Tellmetruth4

Sounds like they got their definition of working class from an Eastenders Christmas special episode.

@Tellmetruth4 Don't you think that's avit offensive to people who the descriptors apply to?

Part of the problem is that "working class" is a loaded and slightly redundant term which is often hijacked for sentimental and slightly self-serving reasons.

Full disclosure, I'm incredibly middle class by background so maybe I don't "get" it, but there's a lot of slightly sentimental adherence to idea of what is "working class" by people for whom the term clearly isn't relevant any more.

Eg a good friend of mine who is a lawyer on a six figure salary insists that she still has the right to call herself "working class" because her dad worked in a car factory and neither of her parents went to university. While another friend of mine who does have a degree and who grew up in a leafy suburb but now works part time in the charity sector and is a single mum and is skint.

I think its slightly specious for my well-paid lawyer friend to classify herself as "working class". She may be from a "working class background" but that isn't the same thing.

I think the whole term is slightly misleading: it dates back to the days when "working class" was defined by people who did manual labour. These days the type of labour you do doesn't necessarily correlate to your wealth: ie you might be a very well-paid welder or do a white collar job such as admin which nets minimum wage.