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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sick of being told I'm black

481 replies

Notjustblackandwhite · 18/10/2020 21:04

Just this really. On Friday a white friend asked me what I thought of racism in the UK as a black person. I'm mixed race, I'm not black. My mum is white and my father is black Brazilian, but it doesn't seem to matter and I frequently get called black ''for ease'', by white people.

I have nothing against the ''black'' part of my heritage, but I'm at most one or two shades darker than Meghan Markle, and I feel as though an identity is being forced upon me, similarly to how your name might get changed because x and y have decided that your name is too "ethnic" to pronounce. I'm getting more and more worked up over this, and recently someone decided to tell me that I was being racist for being dismissive of being black.

AIBU to think that is really grating and makes me want to punch people sometimes (metaphorically of course)?

OP posts:
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grassisjeweled · 19/10/2020 01:15

I work with a woman who is half Italian /half Barbadian. Her surname is Italian. She looks Italian. But she insists she's black and identifies as black.

But she doesn't look black!

What are people supposed to do?

DolphinsAndNemesis · 19/10/2020 01:16

Well said, Nancydrawn.

Sunflowerlover20 · 19/10/2020 01:17

I have a mixed race child that often gets called black, when this happens the person is corrected before they have finished their sentence, it angers me and my child is now getting equally angry about it.

We have mixed race friends and they also pull anyone up if they are called black they are mixed race.

By saying you are one race or the other when you are mixed race is cutting out half your heritage.

DolphinsAndNemesis · 19/10/2020 01:18

The criticism Meghan Markle has attracted has everything to do with race and racism.

turnitonagain · 19/10/2020 01:20

@Sunflowerlover20 why does it anger you?

My kids are mixed race and we don’t expect people to know their heritage nor would we be angered if they are identified as one or the other or some third ethnicity!

Notjustblackandwhite · 19/10/2020 01:26

@turnitonagain that isn't true. I don't for example have any experience of being treated unfavourably by police because of what I look like. In a crude way, I'm not the target market for that kind of racism, despite not being white. You can't assume experience based on one characteristic.

Also, just because there is nothing "wrong" with something doesn't mean you have to just accept being identified in a way that isn't you. There's nothing wrong with being a man, but if you are a woman and people keep insisting that you look like a man so therefore you are one whether you like it or not would be pretty bloody irritating.

OP posts:
turnitonagain · 19/10/2020 01:32

OP what I’m trying to gently suggest to you is

  • you possibly appear more black visibly than you think you do
  • identity is partially societally determined therefore no matter how you see yourself, people around you have been socialised to see something else.

As the thing you’re being called is not a bad or negative thing, learn patience and explain until they remember and stop taking offense. What else can you do about it?

Nenevalleysigns · 19/10/2020 01:32

It’s not the skin colour, it’s the features. She looks ‘quite obviously black’ to me.
People are too scared of offending on the issue, and forums are obliged to take down honest opinions as they can be considered hate speech. You can’t win.

All those people claiming they didn’t know Meghan was black. It was the very first thing British media and Mumsnet picked up on Hmm

OP, you can’t blame your friends for asking you given the current politically correct climate, just educate them, then they’ll never make such presumptions again to you or anyone else.

Sick of being told I'm black
ClickandForget · 19/10/2020 01:34

OP , my best friend of 40 years has a daughter who is (compared to her) black. My friend is white british and fair with natural white blonde hair. The father was black American. The daughter is very dark skinned in comparison to her mother. Nobody has a problem with her being black. She identifies as black. She couldn't do otherwise. She inherited her dad's skin colour. I don't think anyone is that bothered about Meghan Markle's race. It's her personality and attitude that is pissing folk off.

GoldfishParade · 19/10/2020 01:42

@Sunflowerlover20
You get angry because random people dont know the intricacies of your sons ethnicity m? Come on...

ClickandForget · 19/10/2020 01:44

All those people claiming they didn’t know Meghan was black. It was the very first thing British media and Mumsnet picked up on

I didn't know she had black heritage until I saw her mum at the wedding. I can't be the only one. lots of us don't read gossip columns or tabloids.

Sunflowerlover20 · 19/10/2020 01:44

@GoldfishParade so when you see a mixed race child with a white parent it’s not obvious they are mixed race???Hmm

Standandwait · 19/10/2020 01:45

As I recall when Obama was first running for president, our papers described him as mixed-race till he made it clear he identified as black; Meghan Markle made that clear even before they were really reporting on her, I guess - even though she also straightens her hair and uses lighter-toned cosmetics? (Even pointing THAT out is sure to get me shot at, so I don my tin helmet and hasten to add, why shouldn't she?) One thing for sure, Americans don't really use the term "mixed-race" as we do in Britain -- they just say "black" and that may be infecting us along with all the other Americanisms.

There was an interesting article in the Times on Sept 19 that made me sit up, by a woman named Deborah Joseph, half-Iranian, half-German, who said she was angry at being identified as "white." As I am ethnically Syrian and have never thought of myself as anything but white, at first I was not only baffled but annoyed. (And I think carefully now about why "annoyed.") On those questions, if I don't just refuse to answer, I tick "British-Other" though now I think that through, presumably the fact that I now have a British passport isn't what they're asking about either. But what do they want to know, and why? I am very clearly not of Anglo-Saxon or Celtic origin, and am basically olive-skinned but also quite pale. I would think of it as "cultural appropriation" to describe myself as "of colour."

Surely simply having brown hair and brown eyes doesn't make you BAME? But what does make you BAME? What if your ancestry is from India the very definition of Aryan, and potentially anything from very light to very dark skinned? And what is "ethnic" anyway Swedishness is an ethnicity too, isn't it? Isn't "ethnic" just a cover for "race"?

The New York Times's Ethicist column on Oct. 13 had a letter from a Jewish person who asks why he should have to identify as "white" on questionnaires and census papers, when he feels like a minority too. The "Ethicist" told him to man up and admit he's white; it doesn't mean you're not also a victim of other forms of discrimination.

In the US I know there's this whole thing about "Hispanic," since that census grouping can include people of all skin tones and ethnic backgrounds too, from black-looking to white-looking via all sorts of native South American "Indian" (??? there's a term) backgrounds.

For me it helps that my two brothers married, in the one case, an Indonesian-Chinese woman, and in the other, an Argentinian woman with what looks like a lot of "Indian" features but also a Germanic, blue-eyed Argentinian father. Since I married a Brit, all three of us have ended up with one blue-eyed child out of two, making it clear that even on the Syrian side there is a blue-eyed gene. We like to joke that we as a family embody the concept of the United Nations.

Beyond that, I give up. But I also give you my hand, OP. Some day all this will be irrelevant.

Goosefoot · 19/10/2020 01:48

Goosefoot It is in a way about heritage, because being labelled as "black" in this country comes with a whole set of both physical traits and cultural experiences that I frankly can't identify with. And the ones I can identify with, partly because of my experience as someone with both black and white heritage, don't matter.

I think there are actually a lot of people who don't experience those. And many of them aren't mixed race.
That's the difficulty, we behave as if there is just one thing that being black is, a certain culture, a certain class experience, certain music and foods, certain political opinions. But it's just not true.
I actually think it's healthier to think about your heritage in a more individual way, many of us have unique family histories and profiles and sets of experiences related to those, that are pretty individual, in terms of all the things you mention.
It's a weird thing, society defines race very broadly, so broadly that they see a guy living in the mountains of Rwanda and guy living in the Kalahari desert are the same race despite very different languages, culture, physical appearance, environment. That's to say nothing of the experience within those cultures of things like sex, class, or religion. But at the same time we tend to assume a kind of sameness of experience and political opinion and culture. Even in a country like the US, where most blacks have European ancestors and don't know a lot about their families history before coming to the US, there are very different experiences among different parts of the black or African American population. Recent immigrants have a different experience for example, or middle class families etc.
It's probably not a bad thing for people to hear that someone defined as black by the social conventions of their society doesn't fit in with the experiences or think the narrative is really something that applies to their family well.

DangerMouse17 · 19/10/2020 01:50

So because NM is lighter skinned and attractive, she could only be white or Hispanic? This is what all the people who somehow thought she was white "with a bit of a tan' etc think....she cant possibly be black Hmm

As a mixed race person I identify as BLACK and am proud to do so. I have hair and features that are black, japanese and Scandinavian. People have treated me differently on the basis of my skin, nose and hair all my life and I embrace what I am. I still have affinity to my other sides and embrace that too. If people delve deeper or I want to share my full heritage with someone, then I tell them more. To be honest labels annoy me and I dont want to be like the US where every shade of black has a separate name...african-american, afro-latino, creole blah blah blah.

OP just correct them. Unfortunately people will identify you as how they initially see you with their own eyes. If you have black features, you have black features...

DangerMouse17 · 19/10/2020 01:50

*MM

Standandwait · 19/10/2020 01:54

I'd add to what Goosefoot says that one important difference for mixed-race people could be, not only what you look like (what others assume), but in what culture you were brought up -- which could come down quite simply to: was it your father who was black, and he left when you were very young (Obama), or your mother, and she brought you up (Markle)? I actually think that our use of "mixed-race" in the UK is much more helpful than the literally black-and-white narrative of the US. Meanwhile my autistic son has asked me why we call people with brown shades of skin "black" and people like my husband and me "white" when he is clearly, um, "pink" and I am clearly, um, "beige."

Goosefoot · 19/10/2020 01:56

[quote Sunflowerlover20]@GoldfishParade so when you see a mixed race child with a white parent it’s not obvious they are mixed race???Hmm[/quote]
Lots of mixed race people call themselves black rather than mixed race. A white friend of mine has a mixed race son, who isn't particularly obviously mixed either unless he grows his hair and even then peopel might not pick up on it, who calls himself black.

Also some kids are adopted.

ClickandForget · 19/10/2020 01:58

All those people claiming they didn’t know Meghan was black. It was the very first thing British media and Mumsnet picked up on
I have to repeat this because it's so unfair.

It's really not obvious that MM has black heritage. Not to me or anyone I know. And it doesn't matter anyway.
It's not about race or colour is it? It's about dignity and responsibility.
Okay, you divest yourself of the Royal 'title' Then stop making cash out of it from our American cousins, dude.

Standandwait · 19/10/2020 02:05

Are we all slightly missing the point, btw? Isn't it also, why ask a person you think is "black" what they think of BLM and not ask a white person too? Don't we all have opinions? As I said above, I think of myself as white, but I see racism quite obviously continues. One form of racism is to assume "black" people want to talk all the time about "black issues" -- and that no one else does.

ClickandForget · 19/10/2020 02:06

By saying you are one race or the other when you are mixed race is cutting out half your heritage

But how are we expected to know!?!!

NeonGenesis · 19/10/2020 02:06

So because NM is lighter skinned and attractive, she could only be white or Hispanic? This is what all the people who somehow thought she was white "with a bit of a tan' etc think....she cant possibly be black

Nope, I thought she was white just because she really looks like a typical white person to me. I also don't think she's attractive at all. (Sorry if that sounds bitchy, I only mentioned it as a response to your specific comment!)

I am East Asian and I only lived in the UK for a few years, so maybe I didn't hang around long enough to be able to easily distinguish the typical facial features of British people..?

I think this highlights the point that a lot of PP's have made about it all being somewhat arbitrary to assume someone's race. Unless someone actually tells you their background you really have no idea - you're just guessing based on skin tone, hair and facial features. People do it to me all of the time, and they almost always get it wrong.

Goosefoot · 19/10/2020 02:07

One thing for sure, Americans don't really use the term "mixed-race" as we do in Britain -- they just say "black" and that may be infecting us along with all the other Americanisms.

I don't think it's just a direct borrowing.

The ideology around race, which is being imported largely from the US, also leads people to that conclusion.

That's kind of the whole race argument as it is being made now with organisations like BLM, that it's being black, appearing as a black person, that disadvantages people. Not your culture, your family experience. Not how you identify - because then you could identify out of anti-black racism.

I am not saying everyone believes this, or that all black people do, or that I do. But it is a very loud narrative at the moment that is dominating the left side of the media.

So if people accept that, of course they can't see being black as being about identity. That is not logically compatible with that view of anti-black racism.

Awitssolove · 19/10/2020 02:08

in a crude way, I'm not the target market for that kind of racism, despite not being white.

Imagine being 'treated white' but thought of as black.

grassisjeweled · 19/10/2020 02:10

But how are we expected to know!?!!

^

This is my point too! And why?! To change our behaviour accordingly?

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