Age DOES affect how tragic death is

[Bumpitybumper]

In the current climate and for obvious reasons, I see a lot of discussion about the average age of people dying from Coronavirus and how it is skewed significantly towards the elderly. Inevitably, this will lead to some claiming that this fact is irrelevant and a life is a life and any death is equally tragic. Talk of amending our approach towards the virus because of the average age of the people dying is shot down quickly. The implication being that any acknowledgement that the loss of an elderly person's life is less significant or tragic than a young person is implying that the elderly are expendable or don't matter.

To be clear, I don't think either of those things BUT I do think most people tend to find death more tragic and significant the younger the victim. My theory is that death is an inevitability for all of us, but there is a presumed "normal" lifespan and therefore young people that have died are viewed to have had less opportunity/experience and lost more years.

The ultimate test I believe is that if there was an emergency (e.g. burning building) most people would opt to save the younger person over an elderly person if only one could be saved. I think if children are involved then again most people would rescue them as a priority over adults.

So AIBU to think age does affect how we perceive death?

I think it’s also more sad when younger people die because they often die before their parents and no parent should have to bury their child.

The death of many people on this thread would be no tragedy. Grief at death is about love, not age and I doubt many people love you.

I suspect this applies to you if you go about making vile statements about people who disagree with you.

Grief is what the people left behind feel, the person who dies does not. You can feel grief over someone dying at the right time, having had a wonderful and fulfilling life. It can be devastating because you love and miss them. It doesn’t make their death a tragedy, however.

I'm going to hide this thread as it is sets up a straw man - that people really are concerned about whether one death is more "tragic" than another - and since most people are you to say dying later in life is less tragic than a child dying, this is then used to justify all sorts of ageist ideas about how an older person dying is less significant or less sad or less hard for them or their family. Bereavement is not generally a competition. For any loss you experience, you can imagine something worse happening. Does doing that actually help?

@OlympicProcrastinator

By the same reckoning, once extrapolated, children with health conditions which shorten life expectancy are less important than healthy children. But any one of them, or anyone else, can be the person who goes on to cure cancers or otherwise benefit humankind.

Death is inevitable for all, but one set of humans shouldn't have the say on the value of the life of another set, if it is preventable.

@Teateaandmoretea
Grief is what the people left behind feel, the person who dies does not. You can feel grief over someone dying at the right time, having had a wonderful and fulfilling life. It can be devastating because you love and miss them. It doesn’t make their death a tragedy, however
I recently had an elderly relative die and I was devastated, however I was able to acknowledge that they had ultimately won the lottery of life. They had lived many happy, healthy decades with so much joy and fulfillment. They had achieved all their life goals and had very little suffering. Isn't that the best we can all hope for? How can I possibly describe his death as a tragedy? This doesn't negate the fact that I miss him terribly and feel sad that he is no longer with us. Ultimately though I have to accept that at his age, another illness would have been inevitably just around the corner and this one could have caused more suffering and pain.

By the same reckoning, once extrapolated, children with health conditions which shorten life expectancy are less important than healthy children. But any one of them, or anyone else, can be the person who goes on to cure cancers or otherwise benefit humankind

Very good point. I hadn’t really considered it that way.

But a child with a life limiting illness is a tragedy because they haven’t yet lived a life. So the tragedy would be more that they were going to die, irrespective of what they died from surely?

Whereas when we are old, we have had a long life. We will die. That is normal. It is not normal for a child who has not yet experienced all that life has to offer to die.

It is a blessing to live to a ripe old age.

But how do you define when someone has reached their "time"? Most people I know that have died could have technically lived longer in different circumstances. They have died from complications of viruses (including D&V and the flu) that could have been managed better or have died of cancer and heart disease where they would have had more years of life if the diagnosis and treatment they received was world leading.

Or a fall that happened because they were old but also because they were unlucky etc.

Quite a few years ago now I was reading something on what would happen if you could eradicate old age - stop the body from aging, stop the brain from aging, cure cancer, cure heart disease etc. There are people that think we could get there within a lifetime or too.
Anyway I think it said that if you get rid of all natural causes of death the average life expectancy based on cause of death now and the % each year would be about 250-300 years because every year we do have a chance of dying by car accident, other accidents, murder, suicide etc. It really stayed with me.

But yes I think there is a big point to be made that most causes of death are to some extent preventable but you can’t prevent everything indefinitely.

but one set of humans shouldn't have the say on the value of the life of another set, if it is preventable

Again I’ll just say that yes you are right, all lives have equal value, but doesn’t it matter at all that one person has already had that life, or the vast majority of it if the other person has barely had a look in?

If there was one slice of cake available, would you give it to the person who had had none yet, or the person who had already eaten a whole cake

I totally agree. People in their 80s and 90s have had their lives already and both my parents (who died in their 90s) lived at least 6 months longer than they wanted to. I am very glad they died before this pandemic. It's not saying that the lives of the elderly don't matter, it is accepting that we are all mortal and that if you reach 80 you have "had a good innings" as my dad used to say.

There is also a natural way of the world, someone dying young is being robbed of a life. Many, but not all, elderly are more accepting of death.

In times past people would have a lot of children because those children had a good chance of dying in infancy/child birth. As with most things modern medicine and better standards of living mean a lower death rate in childhood and people living longer into old age. Without those developments the “natural* order would be higher death rates in childhood and lower life expectancy. Every death is a loss of a person and tragic for those it touches.

The posters complaining about this thread just go to prove how uncomfortable we as a society are about discussing death. This thread is not ageist in the slightest - it's a very interesting discussion and I hope @mnhq don't pull this thread.

I find the idea of people dying alone being actively denied the chance to say goodbye to loved ones inhumane. Nobody should have to endure this.

@VinylDetective
Nice attempt to start an ageist thread by stealth, OP. As if MN wasn’t ageist enough without your help
If you think that's my intention then it's hardly be stealth is it? Are you suggesting that the 90% of posters that agree are also ageist. Acknowledging the biological fact that death will come to us all and is statistically much more likely to occur as we age ISN'T ageist. If in your view every life ends in a "tragic" death then you have a very perspective on death and what constitutes a tragedy than me. I view a life well lived as a success and something to be thankful for, not a tragedy because the inevitable happens at the end. This doesn't detract from the grief and bereavement of friends and family though.

I think it’s partly age and partly circumstance. I’m 30 but I heard a news story about a 19 year old dying the other day. It makes the news because it’s unusual for that to happen versus the 89 year old. My thoughts on hearing of the teenager’s death wasn’t ‘oh that should have been an older death’, my thoughts were that this person was only 19 and whilst I’m only 11 years older I was sad for everything they would miss in those 11 years (and beyond). I hope to do a lot in my life before I die and that teenager doesn’t have that option.

Deaths when younger also get more attention which attracts grief tourist to the funerals of the young. Which I think just adds to the emotions surrounding that person. When my aunt died, her funeral was filled with people wanting a front tow seat to the tragic event.

The relatives I’ve lost have all been sad and have all impacted me in some way. I lost three relatives over 2 years, some old and some young, each death added to swirling and seemingly never ending grief. However, my aunt’s death (under 40) was the biggest shock, was the biggest upheaval to our life. Circumstance does play a part though - it was quite sudden and she had a young child. When my grandma died (70) she was in hospital but not in ICU, we’d seen her the day before and was fine. When my mum called me to say my grandma had died it was a massive shock but not as big a shock as when my aunt died. When my grandad died (78), he’d been poorly for years. He’d had a series of mini strokes that had impaired his memory and conversation. On the few occasions he’d been able to engage in a conversation, he’d told me that he hated he forgot so much and his mind was so foggy. I’d prepared myself to get the call that he’d died for two years before he did, I’d prepared myself that he wouldn’t be at my wedding. He hung on and on, even when he was put in palliative care he hung on. While I miss my grandad, his death was nothing but a relief.

Unfortunately as you age, you’re more likely to have these conditions. My two remaining grandparents have some pre-existing conditions, whilst not particularly active, they aren’t ill. They’re also still themselves and if they were to die tomorrow, their deaths would be a shock and I would grieve them. I think though, when younger people have conditions that mean their death is a relief, that relief is tinged with sadness that the younger person couldn’t have more years (any years) living without that condition.

@Slightlybrwnbanana

I'm going to hide this thread as it is sets up a straw man - that people really are concerned about whether one death is more "tragic" than another - and since most people are you to say dying later in life is less tragic than a child dying, this is then used to justify all sorts of ageist ideas about how an older person dying is less significant or less sad or less hard for them or their family. Bereavement is not generally a competition. For any loss you experience, you can imagine something worse happening. Does doing that actually help?

Well said. To use "cake" as a fatuous example shows the level people will stoop to here to justify their foul opinions.

Though as you say, the arguments are straw man ones anyway. Nobody offers up as an example whether they'd save their own mother or a random teenager in the fire. It's only a 90 year old with dementia or your own toddler.

So you’re asking us to accept that death is inevitable and more likely to occur as we age? That doesn’t seem overly controversial. Do you have any bigger argument/agenda, or is it just that?

I totally agree with this. I couldn’t have said it better

Yes, a 90 year old dying is less tragic than a 40 year old dying but anyone dying before their natural life expectancy is tragic.

A lot of the people dying from Covid are 55-70 and have years of healthy, fulfilling life in front of them; they may never get to see their kids get married or meet their grandchildren as a result of Covid. It is not acceptable for people to be okay about them dying!

Totally agree OP. My mum recently told me that a former neighbour of hers had died and it was such a tragedy, as at 93 he was fit and healthy, still driving long distances, then died suddenly. To me this is not a tragedy at all - reaching a good age in good health, then a quick death. Dying young, or having years of ill health, now that would be tragic. We should all be so lucky as that neighbour.

To answer a much earlier point, I disagree that Covid is no different from other causes of death. I’d rather an elderly relative slipped away peacefully of old age (as some do) than died of a horrible respiratory disease which could perhaps have been prevented. But maybe you’re talking generally, not about Covid.

[quote Bumpitybumper]@witheringrowan
So many covid deaths are people dying before their time, and that's tragic what ever their age
But how do you define when someone has reached their "time"? Most people I know that have died could have technically lived longer in different circumstances. They have died from complications of viruses (including D&V and the flu) that could have been managed better or have died of cancer and heart disease where they would have had more years of life if the diagnosis and treatment they received was world leading.

So is your "time" when nature would kill you or how long you could possibly live with the best human intervention? Realistically we don't have enough resources to offer the best intervention to everyone so the latter isn't really an option and nature has to take a role when it comes to defining someone's lifespan. Covid 19 is no different than other causes of death and arguably many of the people that are more susceptible to it are also more susceptible to other causes of death that we don't offer the best possible treatment for or shutdown society to prevent.[/quote]
Let's imagine a hypothetical 81 year old woman who died from covid in April. Based on ONS stats, she would have a 90% expectation of living a further 9 years had she not caught the virus. That 90% probability includes the possibility of all other potential health risks because the ONS projection draws on all death data - whether it's an accident, illness, old age that leads to the death.

Obviously you could argue for individual cases that someone would have died sooner or later. But in the aggregate, a significant proportion of the 30,000+ people aged over 80 who have died in England & Wales from Covid could have expected to live for several years more - full, valuable years of life - had the government handled this pandemic with more competence. If we are not going to treat that as tragic, we are heading into very murky waters.

@redcarbluecar
So you’re asking us to accept that death is inevitable and more likely to occur as we age? That doesn’t seem overly controversial. Do you have any bigger argument/agenda, or is it just that?
I think my OP is pretty clear as is the poll. I don't have a particular agenda other than to discuss an admittedly difficult and sensitive topic. I notice that previous discussions I've seen around this topic are usually piled in on by those who think that any dissent from the "all deaths are equally tragic" line must be rooted in eugenics or ageism.Obviously, depending on your perspective then this could influence your views on different policy issues but it's wider than that really. Contrary to what some people believe though, my agenda isn't to undermine other people's personal grief or to imply older people are expendable and less important.

Your argument is flawed because it is based on quantity of life rather than quality.

While a person could live until they are 90 and have 90 healthy years another could be born with severe health complications or be diagnosed with a terminal illness which will kill them over a matter of years.

If an older person dies you can say that they’ve lived a good life, but if a younger person dies of a debilitating or terminal illness, while the means by which they arrived there are tragic, the death perhaps isn’t because it’s a release.

Anyone can be ready to die regardless of their age, but due to their circumstances.

The family of a person diagnosed with terminal cancer will often tell you that they have grieved the loss before the death has actually occurred, and that that death is actually a release, both for the person and also for the family who have had to watch them suffer.

I would say that death is less tragic than someone who is healthy and is struck down by a preventable illness while they were still healthy, even if they’re 90.

Respiratory infections are often quicker and kinder ways of dying, as compared to degenerative neurological conditions like Alzheimer's. Pneumonia is known as the 'old man's friend' because:

left untreated, the sufferer often lapses into a state of reduced consciousness, slipping peacefully away in their sleep, giving a dignified end to a period of often considerable suffering

www.netdoctor.co.uk/ask-the-expert/cancer-faqs/a10366/why-is-pneumonia-called-the-old-mans-friend/

That is not to dismiss how traumatic and brutal being ventilated because of pneumonia or COVID is.

[quote Bumpitybumper]@VinylDetective
Nice attempt to start an ageist thread by stealth, OP. As if MN wasn’t ageist enough without your help
If you think that's my intention then it's hardly be stealth is it? Are you suggesting that the 90% of posters that agree are also ageist. Acknowledging the biological fact that death will come to us all and is statistically much more likely to occur as we age ISN'T ageist. If in your view every life ends in a "tragic" death then you have a very perspective on death and what constitutes a tragedy than me. I view a life well lived as a success and something to be thankful for, not a tragedy because the inevitable happens at the end. This doesn't detract from the grief and bereavement of friends and family though.[/quote]
Totally agree. Having unfortunately experienced several deaths in the family over the last decade of people of very different ages, I do not consider all deaths to be a tragedy - sad for the people left behind but really not tragic.

Death of an old person after a long and hopefully happy life is part of life’s inevitable journey. Modern medicine has meant that people live far far longer but gives the false and unrealistic expectation that death can somehow be avoided or that everyone should live until they are 100.