Age DOES affect how tragic death is

[Bumpitybumper]

In the current climate and for obvious reasons, I see a lot of discussion about the average age of people dying from Coronavirus and how it is skewed significantly towards the elderly. Inevitably, this will lead to some claiming that this fact is irrelevant and a life is a life and any death is equally tragic. Talk of amending our approach towards the virus because of the average age of the people dying is shot down quickly. The implication being that any acknowledgement that the loss of an elderly person's life is less significant or tragic than a young person is implying that the elderly are expendable or don't matter.

To be clear, I don't think either of those things BUT I do think most people tend to find death more tragic and significant the younger the victim. My theory is that death is an inevitability for all of us, but there is a presumed "normal" lifespan and therefore young people that have died are viewed to have had less opportunity/experience and lost more years.

The ultimate test I believe is that if there was an emergency (e.g. burning building) most people would opt to save the younger person over an elderly person if only one could be saved. I think if children are involved then again most people would rescue them as a priority over adults.

So AIBU to think age does affect how we perceive death?

Of course a young persons death is worse than an old. A young person has not lived their life, leaves behind parents, siblings, children etc and an older person will rarely leave parents and will have also lived their life. That's the difference. They've lived a life.

I think it's all relative really. When my Mum died that to me personally was far more tragic than the death of a younger person I don't know. Yes she was old, but she was my Mum.

Surely it depends on your relationship to the person?
Losing my 90 year old grandmother is inherently worse for me than hearing of a previously fit 30 year old dying of a heart attack that I didn't know.

And @AuntieStella nailed it. You can dress these threads up by putting them in different topics but we all know where we're going with them.

@eaglejulesk

I really don’t agree. I don’t think you can weigh one death against another. I have no idea what age you’d arbitrarily select as ok to die. Some of the saddest deaths I see are of old people with equally old spouses left alone after 50 years of marriage.

This. Of course it is tragic when a young person dies, but when older people die and leave behind a long standing spouse, siblings, friends it is just as sad for those left. I used to think like the OP until I attended an elderly neighbour's funeral. She was 90 but living alone and coping well, but died after a car accident. Outside the church I saw an elderly woman sobbing - it turned out she her sister and was the last surviving sibling of a big family. Elderly people who are unwell/suffering are often ready to go, but most who are in relatively good health no more want to die than the rest of us do.

I disagree with these views. Death of a loved one is terribly sad no matter what their age.

But OP asked if young people dying is more TRAGIC and of course it is. Children and young adults not living a full life is much more tragic than someone dying at an old age.

I forgot to add. my DF had a heart procedure done two weeks ago at age 87. He said to me a couple of times that he has had a good life, sort of preparing me I think in case he didn't survive - but I'm pretty sure he was actually scared that he wouldn't make it. Fortunately he did, and has a new lease on life.

X posted with Pink.

When my grandma does age 93 we breathed a sigh of relief. She had been ready to go for the last 5 years, her friends were all dead, her husband had died 30 years earlier and her quality of life was pretty poor. Her funeral was actually happy, she was back where she wanted to be

When a family member died in their 40’s it was a different story, a travesty and all that goes with it

Yes of course. It is sad when we lose people close to us even when they are very old, but it is not tragic. It is tragic when a young life is lost.

We’ve been making actual judgements on the value of life for a very long time before the sort of frothy outrage we have about Covid.

Take a rudimentary look at any life insurance policy and how it works.

Try and get a life insurance policy aged 90.

This is an example of actual £ put on the value of life at different ages.

It’s nothing new and not unreasonable

But to join in the moral maze question about the burning building.
If someone I loved was in there, I'd save them first.
Otherwise I'd save the person I got to first. Even if they were 90.

Yanbu. My 90yo great aunt is 'waiting for God' as she puts it, has been utterly heartbroken since my great uncle died a few years ago

My grandad (89) is the same ... he is always talking about the years, months and days since "she left me".

He is very frail and talks about how he is waiting for his call.
He wants a dignified death at home... not in a hospital whatever the end stage will be.

It's fine by us as a family, however sad. Just because we have the ability to prolong someone's life, doesn't mean we have to do it.

The problem on the Covid threads is that the ‘elderly and vulnerable’ are lumped together, as if we’re all at death’s door. Most of us are not. My DH is 55 and has asthma and I’m 51 and struggling with long Covid as well as CFS. We have school-aged (adopted) DDs of 11 and 8. DD1 has SEN. So we’re definitely not at death’s door’ thank you very much!

Also, my DM is 81 and my MIL is 80. They’re both in good health and could easily live for another 10-15 years. But my DM is prone to bronchitis so Covid could easily have a bad impact on her.

I do agree, though, that if they were to die of Covid it would be less tragic than that of a friend who died of breast cancer leaving behind her DH and two pre-schoolers. That is evident. But it doesn’t mean that they’re ready to die yet.

Also, I would hate to think of either of them dying alone in hospital of Covid. That’s what makes Covid deaths tragic, whatever the age.

You are being very unreasonable to post a thread that is basically an exercise in grief tourism, where lots of people will post their stories and turn it into a hierarchy competition. In addition to whether or not a death is tragic there is the broader area of the amount of grief felt by those they knew, which is definitely not limited to the young.

Of course a young persons death is worse than an old. A young person has not lived their life, leaves behind parents, siblings, children etc and an older person will rarely leave parents and will have also lived their life. That's the difference. They've lived a life.

Of course an old person doesn't leave parents, but they often still have siblings and children, and more importantly, a spouse. Also, I lost a friend at a young age, but she had done far more in her short life than many people who die at 40 years older have done.

It's basic maths. How many years of life did that person get before dying? The more, the better (probably...), which means, all things being equal, the younger the person, the sadder the death.

However, circumstances matter too. A very physically and/or emotionally painful death is more tragic. So, some of the COVID deaths really are more tragic than others: getting to say farewell to your loved ones before slipping into a coma, sounds less bad than staying conscious and being utterly alone and terrified all the way through.

And then there's those who stay behind... An adult leaving lots of young and vulnerable dependents behind is more tragic than someone whose loved ones are all financially self-reliant.
And yet someone that no one will miss is tragic too...

It's not a competition. All these things matter. In my opinion... The living matter more than the dead. And since seeing other people dying terrifies the fuck out of the living, let's try to keep it low and dignified, shall we?

YANBU op, in fact I'm glad someone finally said it. I was a bit baffled at how in the last few months people have started acting that it's absolutely as tragic and hearbreaking when a 90 y old dies as it is when a 40 y old dies and if you dare to suggest anything different you are a heartless granny killer.

And yes, OF COURSE that doesn't mean elderly are expendable, just that there is a middle ground.

Failing to help the frailest out of a burning building first is just utter shit.

You'd save someone in their 90s over a toddler? Really?

YABU - one thing I have realised as I have got older is death affects you more. Maybe it's the fact that it is much closer as you age. My DH lost his DF when he (the DF) was 52. DH was a teenager and it didn't affect him as much as when he will (eventually) lose his mother. Most comments on here are about losing grandparents - you wait until it is your parents. The longer you have them the worse it is. So for all those who are saying 'they've had their life' wait until you lose someone who has been a constant in your life for 60+ years. It may affect how OTHER PEOPLE view it, but not if it is a close family member.

YANBU, if a person in their 80/90s dies it's sad but they have had a good long life, if someone in their 20s dies they haven't lived at all. And I'm sorry i day that as someone who lost my Nan this year, who was very loved.

A young person dying is generally losing more years of potential life because their life expectancy was longer. In terms of choosing how to prioritise healthcare spending this is significant and usually healthcare rationing (including within the NHS) does take the qaly (quality adjusted life years) saved as the result of an intervention into account. So an intervention which is justified for a health 20 year old may not be for an 85 year old in poor health. This is already the case and has been for a long time. I think most people would agree that if there are only resources to fund one life saving treatment and you have to choose whether to give it to the 20 year old or 85 year old it is more ethical to give it to the 20 year old because they will probably get more benefit from it.

I personally would find the death of my son more tragic than the death of a grandparent and I think that the majority of people would say the same. I lost my gran earlier this year - she died of pneumonia but had late stage dementia and would probably have died of covid or anything else she caught within a few months had she survived. Of course I was very sad to lose her but wouldn't describe her death as tragic - it was her time and I don't think she wanted to prolong her life further. I really don't think she would have wanted me to save her from a burning building before saving my son either.

I don't think anyones saying "let the old people die" but realistically in my mind it is less tragic. As someone upthread said, they've had a long life. A really good shot at it. A chance to have a family, or travel, or do whatever it is they wanted to do. A child, or very young adult often hasn't had that. And that in my mind is more tragic.

No presumably covid isn't a very nice way to go. But then what would you consider a nice way to go? For me, personally, and I don't think anyone needs to agree with me or not because this is personally what I think for me I would personally rather die of a short illness like covid, than suffer with something long-term and have an awful quality of life.

I don't want anyone to die, obviously, but unfortunately people do, every day.

@TheLobster

YANBU op, in fact I'm glad someone finally said it. I was a bit baffled at how in the last few months people have started acting that it's absolutely as tragic and hearbreaking when a 90 y old dies as it is when a 40 y old dies and if you dare to suggest anything different you are a heartless granny killer.

And yes, OF COURSE that doesn't mean elderly are expendable, just that there is a middle ground.

Finally said it? Mumsnet is absolutely jam packed with ageist threads like this since February. Where have you been? There were 4 at least yesterday.

I absolutely do not think we should "let the elderly die" btw, but I think (and this is aside from covid but covid has perhaps shone a light on it) we need to have more conversations about how we treat our elderly people.

Stripping back services, leaving them alone, the disintegration of communities has had a terrible effect on old people and their mental health, especially the poor.

There's no point bringing them into hospital and poking them with needles and breaking ribs during cpr to keep them alive when they've been ignored for the past ten years

I live in quite a close knit rural community. My mother used to take meals to the old people in our area, she'd drive them places, get my dad to cut their grass, pick them up from hospitals. I can see this starting in my generation - a friend cleans and does shopping for her elderly widowed neighbour.

This doesn't happen everywhere though - on one side of my family, all the adult children and grandchildren have moved far from their elderly parents, who are now being cared for by a great neice. The children and grand children have been all over Facebook talking about protecting the NHS and your dear nan, when I know they've not been near their own parents for a long time - a combination of they genuinely can't (you go where the jobs are) and they are busy working and caring for their own family - but I think that factors into the guilt a lot of people have, when their elderly parents do get ill and all of a sudden they are out of time.

As a society I think it's simply a cop out to pretend that dying of natural causes at an advanced age is the worst thing that can happen to an old person who has been ignored for decades and whose death is an uncomfortable reminder to the living of their own mortality and their own sand timer.

@MilkTwoSugarsThanks

Failing to help the frailest out of a burning building first is just utter shit.

You'd save someone in their 90s over a toddler? Really?

If it was my Mum or Dad or Uncle then yes I would.

DDad who is late 70's fit, active and healthy and I were talking COVID19 this week. His comment was the average age of someone who dies in the UK is 81.5 years and for COVID19 it's currently a bit higher. So while each is an individual tragedy and some people may be taken a number of years early, if you are the government or public health at a population level they should be giving equal weight to the mental health of all.