Age DOES affect how tragic death is

[Bumpitybumper]

In the current climate and for obvious reasons, I see a lot of discussion about the average age of people dying from Coronavirus and how it is skewed significantly towards the elderly. Inevitably, this will lead to some claiming that this fact is irrelevant and a life is a life and any death is equally tragic. Talk of amending our approach towards the virus because of the average age of the people dying is shot down quickly. The implication being that any acknowledgement that the loss of an elderly person's life is less significant or tragic than a young person is implying that the elderly are expendable or don't matter.

To be clear, I don't think either of those things BUT I do think most people tend to find death more tragic and significant the younger the victim. My theory is that death is an inevitability for all of us, but there is a presumed "normal" lifespan and therefore young people that have died are viewed to have had less opportunity/experience and lost more years.

The ultimate test I believe is that if there was an emergency (e.g. burning building) most people would opt to save the younger person over an elderly person if only one could be saved. I think if children are involved then again most people would rescue them as a priority over adults.

So AIBU to think age does affect how we perceive death?

Acknowledging the biological fact that death will come to us all and is statistically much more likely to occur as we age ISN'T ageist. It's not as simple as that. The death rate for babies under a year is higher than for any other age group less than 55. But I can't imagine anyone feeling the death of a baby from Covid is less tragic than the death of a 50 year old because the baby was more likely to die in the next year anyway.

So it isn't actually about how likely you were to die, it's about taking the view "you've had a life, someone younger hasn't" rather than, for example "this person is contributing to society, this person hasn't yet made much contribution" which might be another way of looking at it.

[quote Bumpitybumper]@redcarbluecar
So you’re asking us to accept that death is inevitable and more likely to occur as we age? That doesn’t seem overly controversial. Do you have any bigger argument/agenda, or is it just that?
I think my OP is pretty clear as is the poll. I don't have a particular agenda other than to discuss an admittedly difficult and sensitive topic. I notice that previous discussions I've seen around this topic are usually piled in on by those who think that any dissent from the "all deaths are equally tragic" line must be rooted in eugenics or ageism.Obviously, depending on your perspective then this could influence your views on different policy issues but it's wider than that really. Contrary to what some people believe though, my agenda isn't to undermine other people's personal grief or to imply older people are expendable and less important.[/quote]
So you were starting a goady thread? And the people against ageism weren't supposed to "pile in".

Soz. Didn't get the memo.

YANBU, Death is of course sad but it is also unavoidable, and the objective of medicine/healthcare is to delay death rather than stop it from happening.

I heard on a R4 programme a while back that when the cost-effectiveness of healthcare treatment is measured, the standard sometimes used is ‘years of life saved’ rather than ‘number of lives saved’.

So taking this into the COVID era...

If there were 10 deaths of 85 year-olds from COVID, that might be 50 years of life lost in total (5 years lost each on average).

If one younger person aged 20 dies from suicide/undetected cancer, then that’s more than 50 years of life lost.

If someone at 50 with a lower life expectancy due to heart conditions dies early then that might be 15 years of life lost.

Yes there are 10 families left to grieve instead of one, but those 10 families would be grieving anyway, it’s just a question of when.

I’m not saying the balance IS wrong with COVID, I don’t know, but I do hope they are weighing up the YEARS of life lost, along with other factors, rather than just the pure numbers of lives prolonged/cut short.

To answer a much earlier point, I disagree that Covid is no different from other causes of death. I’d rather an elderly relative slipped away peacefully of old age (as some do) than died of a horrible respiratory disease which could perhaps have been prevented. But maybe you’re talking generally, not about Covid.

No one dies of old age. That is not a direct cause of death. They die of issues that are a result/of exacerbated by old age. Quoting from a Dr Tuly Rosenfeld here, a Geratrician, "The reason that many older people quietly die in their sleep is because their swallowing systems don't work, they inhale food, fluid, saliva into their lungs, they catch pneumonia and they die," he says."

www.abc.net.au/news/health/2017-06-14/can-you-die-from-old-age/8605896

Many people die of or with respiratory issues. It is not unique to Covid. Patients with heart failure, flu, cancer, COPD, pneumonia etc often die because they are unable to breathe. Covid is not special in that regard. It isn't always a long drawn out death either. It varies by individual circumstances but death by pneumonia for example can be very peaceful, and especially with good palliative care. My Grandmother died of pneumonia after breaking her hip. It was a very peaceful death, considering that she was unconscious for the entire four days and she slipped away very easily. It was nothing compared to what dementia was doing to her.

gives the false and unrealistic expectation that death can somehow be avoided or that everyone should live until they are 100. And what about the false and unrealistic expectation expressed frequently on MN that anyone over 80 "will die in a few months anyway" when the average remaining life expectancy for an 80 year old woman is a few months short of 10 years?

Yes, of course a young person dying of Covid has "lost" a lot more expected life than an older person. But that doesn't mean the death of the older person doesn't matter, or justify saying we should complete ignore the effects on older people of how we behave.

Nobody offers up as an example whether they'd save their own mother or a random teenager in the fire. It's only a 90 year old with dementia or your own toddler

That’s silly though - in the heat of the moment, with the immediate panic a fire would bring of course you’d probably choose your own family - regardless of age.

In general terms though, I find the untimely death of someone in relative youth much more upsetting/a tragedy than someone of 70’s plus.

I loved my dad a lot - he died at age 65 (so still relatively young in terms of this thread) after an illness, but fairly suddenly. He had a number of health issues and the likelihood he’d ever make it to his 90’s was always slim.

About the same time we lost a very dear friend. Age 30, cancer. Left his wife and 2 children, youngest of which was a toddler.

Without doubt, my dads death has affected me and my family more than our friends’ death, practically, emotionally. BUT with 5 years space and grieving time, if I could bring one of them back it wouldn’t be my dad.

My dad was 65, with a number of health issues. He’d had his career, retired, been married 35 years, seen his children grow up and marry, experienced grandchildren being born. Our friend was ripped from a whole life ahead of him with little notice, missing his whole life and leaving his young family in an awful position.

It’s a no-brainier for me.

@TheSeedsOfADream
*So you were starting a goady thread? And the people against ageism weren't supposed to "pile in".

Soz. Didn't get the memo*
Just because a topic is emotive and some people might find it distressing doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed or that it's automatically "goady". Somebody suggesting that a concept is ageist doesn't make it so and disappointingly for you, you are not the definitive authority on what is and isn't ageist.

For those that say it's harder for someone to lose their parents in their 60s, I'm not sure you can grade grief in that way.
I hate myself for this but I do feel envious of people who still have both parents when they are in their 60s, especially if they are in good health. (My DM died when I was in my early 30s, when my youngest child was 1)
I think the grief works in different ways.
In your 60s you will grieve the long and (hopefully) happy relationship you had, the memories you made.Also the trauma of losing both parents in a shorter space of time.
If your parent died earlier, obviously you grieve what you've lost but you also have more time to grieve what you didnt have. All the times you would have called for a chat or advice, the time you would have invited them to grandparents tea at school, the leaving ceremonies, birthday parties etc

@witheringrowan
The average age of people that died from covid was 82.4 years and this was obviously lowered by those several decades younger that died. An 85 year old man has a 25% chance of dying in the next two years irrespective of covid. Care home residents live an average of 2 years from the time they were first admitted irrespective of covid. Pretending that people in their 80s and 90s generally have more years of healthy lifespan ahead of them is a little bit disingenuous.

I do agree with you OP but some comments on here are so ignorant and competitive it's crazy.

I lost my DM in my late teens, i still dont talk about it now. My DB was only 8 and it was awful watching such a young child go through that. They are going through their school years now, parents evening, birthdays, christmas now without a parent and I'm so worried for my siblings mental health, mine is shattered from it. so to read shite about how the longer you have then the worse it is, is madness. Every death is sad for the relatives but some deaths, even if you never met the person can really shake you.

Pretending that people in their 80s and 90s generally have more years of healthy lifespan ahead of them is a little bit disingenuous
Apologies, that was meant to read "many" as opposed to "more".

my 100 year old grandmother effectively committed suicide last year by refusing food and water. She took two weeks to die, begging all the time to be taken to Switzerland to be euthanised.

a mere four months earlier she had been given life saving treatment in hospital after a fall, including a blood transfusion.

her main carer was my 70plus year old aunt who did a huge amount and also suffered greatly. Once medics were satisfied she'd consented to die and had the necessary paperwork in place to cover their backs they left us to it. it was totally horrific.

i did feel the NHS and society in general let down my grandmother. Frankly, covid would have been kinder.

My dc have lost all their grandparents in the space of a few years. Some of them were "ready to go" others definitely not, but my dc miss out on having them in their lives and experiencing the effects of grief at a younger age than many (not to mention what dh and I have gone through).

Perhaps a way to explain my perspective is that I would now (in my 30s) happily accept a deal for a guaranteed lifespan of 85 years. Statistically I may have a reasonable shot of outliving this, but I would be keen to avoid the risk of dying decades younger and leaving my children without a mother. I think over that time I would have a fair chance of achieving my life goals and doing much of what I want to do. Me dying now or in the near future would be infinitely more tragic in my view, than me dying at 85.

I really don't see the point of your post @Bumpitybumper

Surely you are simply saying what any normal person believes- that dying young is tragic and a waste of life?

As always, loads of posters have come along with examples of things about younger and older folks that are a bit off the topic.

@MereDintofPandiculation

gives the false and unrealistic expectation that death can somehow be avoided or that everyone should live until they are 100. And what about the false and unrealistic expectation expressed frequently on MN that anyone over 80 "will die in a few months anyway" when the average remaining life expectancy for an 80 year old woman is a few months short of 10 years?

Yes, of course a young person dying of Covid has "lost" a lot more expected life than an older person. But that doesn't mean the death of the older person doesn't matter, or justify saying we should complete ignore the effects on older people of how we behave.

I don't think anyone has said the death of an older person doesn't matter, and where on earth did you get the idea that an average 80 year old woman will live another almost 10 years when the average life expectancy of woman in the UK is 83.6 years??

Funeral not funerial - silly predictive text probably

I don't think anyone has said the death of an older person doesn't matter, and where on earth did you get the idea that an average 80 year old woman will live another almost 10 years when the average life expectancy of woman in the UK is 83.6 years??

I don't think that was the meaning. That poster was talking about a woman who has actually reached the age of 80. If they're healthy enough to have lived to that age, chances are good that they'll live for another ten years.

People with poor overall health tend to have died by then.

This isn't always the case obviously. My DH's DGF lived to 92 despite having had bad asthma from childhood and then emphysema. I'm thankful he's not around now. We were able to visit him in his care home. The idea of having an elderly relative who couldn't receive visits because of Covid is awful, that's what is really tragic.

YANBU OP and I think most old and frail people would agree with you

My job role involves discussing advance care planning with the frail elderly and their families and I often hear comments such as "I've had a good life but I'm ready to go now"

Acknowledgement of this does not mean the elderly should not be treated with respect and compassion and be listened to

What do some posters on here consider is the “right” time to die? Because life will soon be able to be prolonged for many years, I saw a figure of 120 mentioned somewhere as a routine age to live until, albeit with dementia and no mobility.

It would be a strange society if this were to happen, with several generations of relatives in care, and great great grandparents whom you had only ever known as bedridden in a care facility and frankly who younger members of the family care nothing for. In fact in Japan this is a problem, as younger family members have to pay to support their elderly. Contributing to your own parents or even granny, ok, but multiple people aged up to 120? Eeeek.

Yes I agree but people age differently, my DF got to 80 with the sharpest brain, no different to when younger, but his body was crippled and he couldn't cope or live well anymore and he was ready to die. My friends parents are also 80 and they still do long hikes! Others unfortunalty are suffering with dementia.

My df death as painful as it was = was not as tragic and traumatic and painful as my dm early sudden death - no way.

Whilst I object to those who think we just put up with Covid 19 because most deaths are of older people, I agree with the sentiment of the OP. Two relatives died within a month of each other a few years ago both of cancer, one aged 60, one 85, and we felt more for the 60 year old because of feeling he had gone many years too soon.

I haven't read thr full thread but a comment about saving a young person in a fire over an old person is true in Western cultures but in China, its the opposite way around (vague recollection of cultural perceptions study). The death of a young person feels harder because the shock of them going exacerbates the grief. The actual grief remains the same but there is additional grief over future events that won't happen with a young person, such as weddings, children etc. Most elderly have had all those life events so the only thing left to grieve is the person themselves. The passing is still tragic but not as life altering to survivors as when a young person passes.

@ReallySpicyCurry

Of course it is, a young person hasn't had the chance to live their lives.

Death is what happens to all of us eventually, but nowadays we don't expect it to happen until we've had a really good shot at life. A young person who has their life ripped away is cheated out of decades of life, all their plans, the chance to start a family. An old person has already had that chance.

That doesn't mean old people shouldn't be respected, protected and cherished, but of course someone of 90 dying is different from someone of 19

You see this at wakes and funereals. Wakes where an elderly person has died are often lovely - lots of swapping stories and reminiscing and enjoying seeing family. Of course you miss them, but generally the old person in question actively wants that sort of send off

When a young one dies, nobody is cracking jokes or telling old stories.

I think covid has shown how detached people are from death. For the first time in history we can mostly all expect to live until we're old, it's our right. Very few of us even slaughter our own meat, many people will get to their 30s and 40s without having to attend any other funereal except perhaps their grandparents. And overall that's brilliant, christ I'm glad for it personally - but I do think it lulls us into a sense that death isn't really something that applies to us anymore.

Past generations were keen on the idea of the memento mori for a very good reason.

Basically I don't think we're emotionally equipped any more to make the sort of decisions we're being asked to make during this pandemic. 100 years ago, in my area anyway, old people would have been told to read their Bible and thank God for the life they'd had and try and make a good death. I don't advocate for that either by the way, but I think the issue now is that we're trying to save everyone and everything all at once, because we live in a society where we generally can have everything we want and the doctors usually fix us all, and actually it's becoming obvious that it's not working this time, something is going to give,but we don't have any control over what it's going to be because we've lost that slightly callous "well everyone dies" attitude that was such a part of humanity for millenia

I think this is a great post, and something I would add to it is that the pandemic has really just brought the problem out. Because of this alienation from death many people have found it increasingly difficult to make decisions about things like cancer treatments in older people, for example. It worse in the US, but many people feel very uncomfortable with doing anything but "fighting" or especially in terms of making decisions for or giving input to their parents who are ill.

It was interesting when I live that many people were quite horrified to find that a lot of elderly people, especially coming from care homes, were being given mainly palliative care when they contracted Covid. It didn't seem to register to them that these people had end of life wishes recorded, DNR forms, and they would have done the same thing for any respiratory infection or other illness.

@Mittens030869

I don't think anyone has said the death of an older person doesn't matter, and where on earth did you get the idea that an average 80 year old woman will live another almost 10 years when the average life expectancy of woman in the UK is 83.6 years??

I don't think that was the meaning. That poster was talking about a woman who has actually reached the age of 80. If they're healthy enough to have lived to that age, chances are good that they'll live for another ten years.

People with poor overall health tend to have died by then.

This isn't always the case obviously. My DH's DGF lived to 92 despite having had bad asthma from childhood and then emphysema. I'm thankful he's not around now. We were able to visit him in his care home. The idea of having an elderly relative who couldn't receive visits because of Covid is awful, that's what is really tragic.

Interesting - I'd love to see some figures on that. Anecdotally a fair few of my female relatives on my mother's side have died in their early 80s. But I do still wonder how that poster got from the thread that people were saying older people's deaths didn't matter when lots of posters shared their experiences of grief over the death of an elderly relative. I totally agree with you - not being able to visit an elderly relative in the last days of their life because of C-19 is a tragedy in itself. I can't even imagine the amount of pain that must cause the bereaved as well as the reality of someone facing their death without their family by their side,