Age DOES affect how tragic death is

[Bumpitybumper]

In the current climate and for obvious reasons, I see a lot of discussion about the average age of people dying from Coronavirus and how it is skewed significantly towards the elderly. Inevitably, this will lead to some claiming that this fact is irrelevant and a life is a life and any death is equally tragic. Talk of amending our approach towards the virus because of the average age of the people dying is shot down quickly. The implication being that any acknowledgement that the loss of an elderly person's life is less significant or tragic than a young person is implying that the elderly are expendable or don't matter.

To be clear, I don't think either of those things BUT I do think most people tend to find death more tragic and significant the younger the victim. My theory is that death is an inevitability for all of us, but there is a presumed "normal" lifespan and therefore young people that have died are viewed to have had less opportunity/experience and lost more years.

The ultimate test I believe is that if there was an emergency (e.g. burning building) most people would opt to save the younger person over an elderly person if only one could be saved. I think if children are involved then again most people would rescue them as a priority over adults.

So AIBU to think age does affect how we perceive death?

@TheoriginalLEM

Anyone dying before their time because they were unlucky enough to contract a virus is a tragedy. What people are forgetting though is people who are said to have died "with" coronavirus will have often had seriously compromised health anyway.

There is also a natural way of the world, someone dying young is being robbed of a life. Many, but not all, elderly are more accepting of death.

I'm not accepting of it and highly doubt I will be whenever my time comes

@TheFormattingIsWrong But I'm in my 50s, admittedly only 51. It's not high risk, but it still much higher than the risk of dying.

It's very ironic that you're talking this way with a poster who is suffering from long Covid, isn't it? It sums how little empathy you have for people less fortunate than yourself, I think.

I hope MNHQ do not delete this thread ; it is an important discussion. It should not be “cancelled” by those that think we should be immortal or that they are more compassionate or loved their relatives “more”.

It's very ironic that you're talking this way with a poster who is suffering from long Covid, isn't it? It sums how little empathy you have for people less fortunate than yourself, I think.

I'm sorry you're suffering from long covid but that really doesn't mean that everyone else is also at high risk of suffering from long covid.

Yes, if I contracted covid I might get long covid. I also might not. The likelihood of me suffering from long covid is less than the likelihood that I won't, but the risk is definitely there. What do you expect me to do about that? Shield?

Also, you really have no idea that I am "fortunate". You have no idea what is happening in my life or what I might currently be suffering or dealing with.

@IrmaFayLear

I hope MNHQ do not delete this thread ; it is an important discussion. It should not be “cancelled” by those that think we should be immortal or that they are more compassionate or loved their relatives “more”.

It’s yet another example of the ageism baked in to MN? Are you seriously happy with that?

I’m actually grateful my grandparents aren’t here to die from Covid.

One died aged 99. I assumed they’d all live to that age but sadly the rest died mid 80s. It felt like it was too soon. And while I’m gutted they’ve gone I am grateful they aren’t here to witness this pandemic.

They died surrounded by loved ones.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that even dying mid 80s can be a shock & feel “too soon”.

I wouldn’t know what it’s like to grieve for child or an adult younger than 60. I don’t know if anyone who has died young.

I really hope that I don’t jinx this. As I can assure you it’ll send shockwaves and be very hard to comprehend.

I bet my post doesn’t even make any sense!!

How is it ageism to say the death of a 90 year old (assuming the death was natural and not a murder etc), is less tragic than the death of a 4 year old?

Less tragic does not mean the life of the 90 year old was worthless. Their life is equally valuable.

No, I didn't say that. I'm not shielding myself and I don't want there to be a lockdown because I also have school-aged DDs who need to be in school.

I'm just asking that you stop being so dismissive about it. It really isn't as low risk as you want to think. It's also a reason why we should follow the restrictions like wearing face masks in shops and practise good hygiene.

@ IrmaFayLear

I’m glad you said that. There are many views on here that I find deeply offensive. But the idea that we shut down any discussion because we don’t like it is very worrying. It is important to air views and challenge them as we see fit. Views don’t just disappear but if we hide them, they remain unchallenged.

Getting old is a fact. We are not talking about a 50-year-old being overlooked for a job (yep, been there) but whether it is “tragic” when someone very old - maybe very ill and with all of their personality ripped away (that is dementia) dies.

If there was one slice of cake available, would you give it to the person who had had none yet, or the person who had already eaten a whole cake?

Age is by no means the be-all-and-end-all when it comes to judging how "tragic" a death is, by no means, but, yes, it's a relevant factor, obviously.

@OlympicProcrastinator

Instead of unecessary, perhaps preventable.

It's also a reason why we should follow the restrictions like wearing face masks in shops and practise good hygiene.

All of which I do so not quite sure why you're getting at me.

When dad was given his terminal diagnosis I asked him how he was...

He said - ‘it’s sad - but I am 70 so it’s not tragic’.

Sorry, where has anyone on this thread said anything about killing off the elderly and disabled? What total hyperbolic nonsense.

I don’t think ‘every death is tragic’ as someone’s said upthread. All of us must die. As they say, death and taxes are the only things we all have in common.

I certainly accept that all deaths are sad, or have an element of sadness, but don’t accept they’re all tragic.

If we think about how we’d like to die - given that it will definitely happen - I think most of us would choose a peaceful, or at least reasonably quick, death at the end of a long life. Having seen our children grow up (if we have children). Maybe having had grandchildren. And if people get that sort of death, that’s fundamentally a beautiful thing - even if it’s tinged with sadness at the loss.

I do think in the West we generally now live such safe and comfortable lives that we’ve lost touch with death and forgetting its inevitability. In the past, and in other parts of the world, people lived or live with death and loss as an ever-present threat and part of existing. For example, a mother dying in childbirth used to be a genuinely common occurrence. We don’t, in general, live with that constant threat which is a very good thing. But I think death has become a huge taboo as a result.

@LakieLady

I'm reminded of John Donne:

Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls,it tolls for thee.

I really like that Lakie. I don't think people's first thought when someone dies (or they are facing death) is whether it is a "tragedy". If it was, then even the death of a child from an illness will be "ranked" as less tragic than the death of a child who was murdered. Who on earth gains from such discussions??

I think the real tragedy is:

1. 1/3rd of people don’t even understand their own terminal diagnosis (learnt from an End of Life conference i recently attended. Figures are likely for my local area)

2. dying at hospital despite wanting to die at home

Those are the real tragedies irrespective of age or illness etc etc.

Imagine knowing you’re about die but you don’t know why or how. You’re in an unusual place you’ve never been before. Probably too hot / too cold / too noisy / strangers everywhere / confused.

literally heartbreaking no matter your age

chickenyhead.

But with the greatest respect, the relatively soon death of someone over 85 is not preventable. ‘Equality’ isn’t ‘sameness’.

We can value someone’s life over 85 as we can you and your children. But the 85 plus year old has HAD the life that you and your children have NOT.

Like PP says, who would you give the last piece of cake to? Those who have eaten a whole cake or those who haven’t had any?

It is not that one life it worth less, it’s that some people have already had most of the gift of life.

All premature, avoidable deaths couid be considered tragic.

The hypothetical 90 year old might have had a decade of good life in them, and that should be respected.

What people are forgetting though is people who are said to have died "with" coronavirus will have often had seriously compromised health anyway.

Yes, out of all the Covid positive patients in my hospital. Only 2 had no co morbidities. The others were in their 80's with lots of other issues.

YANBU. I still remember my DGM’s elderly sister saying she would feel ‘relieved’ when she died. She had developed a neurological disorder and had gone from living a completely independent life to suddenly needing her children to do everything for her, she couldn’t even brush her own hair.

She isn’t the first elderly person I have heard say similar, my DH’s Grandad is very cynical about life since his wife died three years ago and has had a blasé approach to covid as a result.

Every death is sad but it’s ultimately always more tragic when a young person dies because they haven’t had chance to live a full life.

@witheringrowan
So many covid deaths are people dying before their time, and that's tragic what ever their age
But how do you define when someone has reached their "time"? Most people I know that have died could have technically lived longer in different circumstances. They have died from complications of viruses (including D&V and the flu) that could have been managed better or have died of cancer and heart disease where they would have had more years of life if the diagnosis and treatment they received was world leading.

So is your "time" when nature would kill you or how long you could possibly live with the best human intervention? Realistically we don't have enough resources to offer the best intervention to everyone so the latter isn't really an option and nature has to take a role when it comes to defining someone's lifespan. Covid 19 is no different than other causes of death and arguably many of the people that are more susceptible to it are also more susceptible to other causes of death that we don't offer the best possible treatment for or shutdown society to prevent.