Age DOES affect how tragic death is

[Bumpitybumper]

In the current climate and for obvious reasons, I see a lot of discussion about the average age of people dying from Coronavirus and how it is skewed significantly towards the elderly. Inevitably, this will lead to some claiming that this fact is irrelevant and a life is a life and any death is equally tragic. Talk of amending our approach towards the virus because of the average age of the people dying is shot down quickly. The implication being that any acknowledgement that the loss of an elderly person's life is less significant or tragic than a young person is implying that the elderly are expendable or don't matter.

To be clear, I don't think either of those things BUT I do think most people tend to find death more tragic and significant the younger the victim. My theory is that death is an inevitability for all of us, but there is a presumed "normal" lifespan and therefore young people that have died are viewed to have had less opportunity/experience and lost more years.

The ultimate test I believe is that if there was an emergency (e.g. burning building) most people would opt to save the younger person over an elderly person if only one could be saved. I think if children are involved then again most people would rescue them as a priority over adults.

So AIBU to think age does affect how we perceive death?

Alaskathunderfuck, I do so agree. Having had two close relatives with dementia, over more years than I care to remember I paid countless visits to care homes, where I saw many residents with very poor or zero quality of life.
I have not a word to say against the care our relatives received, it was very good, but I have no doubt that many of the poor old things were daily given medication for e.g. blood pressure or whatever else, to keep them ‘healthy’ and fend off death a while longer - for what??

My own mother - already in her late 80s and with pretty bad dementia when she entered the care home - was given BP medication for a mild condition, until we asked what was the point - and it was stopped. (She went on well into her 90s anyway.).

More than once I have also seen such people - albeit I know with the best of intentions - badgered and pestered to eat and drink when they no longer wanted to, and when attempts to ‘encourage’ them were evidently distressing them. I can only put it down to the apparently ingrained ethos that regardless of quality of life, everyone must be kept alive as long as possible.

Most comments on here are about losing grandparents - you wait until it is your parents. The longer you have them the worse it is

I commented earlier about losing my grandparents. My dad died less than a year ago, I wouldn't assume people talking about elderly grandparents dying haven't lost anyone else.

@echt - I've reported it too - and the distasteful enabling of the vote button on this subject. Let's see what MNHQ do.

If this is true - and I'm not sure it is - what you are talking about is individuals. When swathes of older people die sooner than they should we as a society are losing so much experience and, yes, wisdom that it is in fact tragic. That's if you want to look at it in the way of 'what can they do for us?'

The other way you can look at it is that we are becoming callous to other people's suffering by not caring about this. And that can only be a bad thing for society. Who, after all, is next?

Like other posters have mentioned, I think deaths of older people tend to be more ‘easily accepted’ as they have often had long lovely lives surrounded by family. You have more chance to build up nice memories of this person, time is extremely precious.

I have lost both my parents recently, both aged 60. One suddenly with no warning and one from cancer, and I am 30. Speaking from personal experience the hardest thing about losing them is grieving for the loss of time and memories I have of both of them. They will not see me get married or have children, and we don’t get to spend Christmases/birthdays with them again. How can this ever be remotely fair? I would give anything to be able to spend more time with them, especially my Mum.

Most comments on here are about losing grandparents - you wait until it is your parents. The longer you have them the worse it is

My Dad died suddenly aged 62... it was a shock to us all especially as he had just retired and had lots of things lined up.

I learned there and then that death is always looming for ALL of us. Something that we as a society have forgotten.

I think corona is a uncomfortable reminder of our own mortality.

Every death isn’t tragic. Someone dying from a short illness or accident surrounded by their loved ones at the end of a long and enjoyable life is what most of us wish for.

I’m in my thirties and my death would be less tragic than the death of my DC, IMO.

There is a scale and age comes into it but isn’t the only factor.

I also see dementia as quite tragic, especially when it happens to people who were great minds or who got the most joy from reading and debating and such or where a husband or wife has to live for a long time watching their much loved spouse disappearing slowly before their eyes.

trixiebelden77

I'm so glad you posted. I was an ICU nurse for many years and some of the saddest deaths I dealt with were of older people. I think my time in ICU taught me that death is tragedy for those left behind, regardless of the age of the person who died.

I feel like people often confuse ‘tragic’ with ‘very sad’. Saying one death is not as tragic as another does not, to my mind anyway, equate to ‘less sad’ or ‘less value.’

A person who has led a long life, passing away at 80 + is very sad indeed. A tragedy would be something out of the ordinary, an devastating event that shouldn’t happen.

Of course we all ‘should’ die when we are elderly. It’s natural and the only tragedy would be the alternative.

Most comments on here are about losing grandparents - you wait until it is your parents. The longer you have them the worse it is

I have lost my mother.

I think you are missing the point - you are talking about the effect on you and your loss. Horrendous, utterly awful. But it doesn’t make the death of someone elderly tragic

🙄 the reports. Mortality is ageist however PC/ wokey you want to be. Look up the statistics.

This will be long: apologies!!!

As an HCP, I've cried (after shifts!)/been sad for elderly patients (and their families) who have died. Ditto for the younger patients who have died. I look at it the same. When you see families who are not used to having loved ones die, begging you to try and fix their loved one, to make them better (i.e. get them to fit/healthy etc) it's really bloody hard when you know that prognosis is poor no matter what you do. You want to save everyone, make them all better, get them fit and healthy again etc etc....but that won't happen for everyone, and often it is the wrong thing to do. So many times, people look at what we can do, but we must think of what is the right thing to do for the individual. When a patient of mine dies, I'm equally sad for them/their families, whether they are young or elderly.

I was more stoic (but also heartbroken - I love and miss them very much) when my parents (aged 74 and 86) died, and when my grandparents died. Both my parents used to tell me that they did not want to be resuscitated (I come from a family of HCPs, so we do know the score), and that they didn't want to "linger", or be bedbound and needing all care etc etc etc. I remember my mum used to say that she prayed that when her "time" came, she'd go peacefully and quickly. My dad would say similar. They told us not to grieve for them, but be glad that they both had wonderful lives.
My mum died v quickly of cancer. Actually we didn't know she had cancer (she'd complained of feeling a bit tired and a small amount of unplanned weightloss. 3 months of thorough tests, including a PET scan a month before she died, were negative/NAD). She suddenly stopped being able to walk (she was a fit, healthy lady, BMI 20, non-smoker, rarely drank alcohol, no co-morbidities, fully independent etc), admitted to hospital for investigation and then within ten days of that, they'd found small cell carcinoma of the lungs (on day 10 of the admission) and she died. From my point of view, yes tragic and very sad (I adored my parents), but I squared that away with the fact that she was in her 70's, she didn't "linger" or suffer for a long time, she'd seen her children grow up, she'd seen her grandchildren. She'd had a wonderful life and had kept her health and independence all the way through to the time that she was admitted to hospital. She died as she had wished to die, if that makes sense. And that gives me/my siblings comfort. Now, she could have been kept alive for maybe some days/weeks beyond but that would have involved ventilation (within the ten days she was in, she ended up in ITU on NIV, having haemofiltration as her organs failed) and continuing ITU care. It would have been utterly wrong, inappropriate, cruel and going completely against what she would have wanted. It would have prolonged the inevitable and merely served to just keep her alive. It wouldn't have cured the underlying problem (small cell ca) or changed her prognosis.
Likewise with my dad. He was in his 80's: fit, healthy, independent. He'd gone on a 2 month hiking trip with a load of his old RAF mates only 2months before he died. He fell and sustained a bleed on the brain, never recovered consciousness and died 4 days later. Again, I was heartbroken and miss him very much....but I took comfort in the fact that he'd remained independent up to the point of that fall (as he wanted to).
Maybe I'm more accepting and at peace (ditto, my family) about my parents dying because we knew their wishes and also (most of us being HCPs) knew the score re: what would be appropriate treatment/care for them?
This year, 4 of my friends died from cancer. Sounds nuts, but that almost hit me more than my parents dying. I think, because of their ages and the fact that each left behind young families.

Anyway, I've wittered on long enough!!! Hopefully I am making sense!!

Covid really has unfortunately brought the reality of humanity home with a bump.

As long as the people dying are old or have underlying medical conditions, then the public opinion would appear to be, that's ok.

But as a parent of 2 children with underlying health conditions, and with me falling in to the who cares age group of over 40s, also having underlying health conditions, in addition to a weight problem, we all fall quite far down this arbitrary list of whose lives matter.

Any unecessary death is a tragedy.

In the past, when someone in their nineties died, we used to say they had had a 'good innings'. Nobody considered that callous or unfeeling, it was just a statement of fact.

The problem here is that the 'elderly and vulnerable' doesn't just include people have had a 'good innings', but also people in their 50s and 60s, as well as much younger people who have vulnerabilities/co-morbidities.

Other people are having a far poorer quality of life, as a result of suffering from long Covid.

From a personal perspective age does make a difference. All my grandparents died in their 80’s after living long and full lives, saw there kids grow up and get married, and enjoyed many happy times with there grandkids and great grandkids.

My mum died in her 40’s never saw her kids grow up, go to university, get married, etc. Never lived to see her children have children.

Whilst I was very sad when my grandparents died I could console myself that they had full and happy lives. My mums life was cut tragically short.

I recently watched the BBC documentary series on Howard Shipman, and it made the forceful point that he managed to go undetected for so long because of the ages of the victims; people didn't question the deaths because they were "just the elderly". But they were people still living full lives, contributing to their communities, with their own dreams and ambitions. One woman had been an active participant in a pilgrimage in France just months before she was killed. There was another interview with a woman who said if Shipman had been stopped, she could have had another decade at least with her grandfather. These deaths still matter, despite relatively old age.

I'd also point out that life expectancy in the UK is 82 at birth. Once a woman reaches 80, her life expectancy rises to 90, with a 1 in 4 chance of living to 94. So many covid deaths are people dying before their time, and that's tragic what ever their age.

What is tragic when an elderly person dies is covid stopping you going to both their funeral and to the scattering of their ashes.

So many covid deaths are people dying before their time, and that's tragic what ever their age.

But the death of someone who dies at 80 when they might otherwise have died at 90 is less tragic than the death of someone who dies at 30 with 2 young children, or the death of a 9 year old. Correct?

I was fortunately in that my grandparents never went downhill. Nana walked to the supermarket the day before she died and the day before that went to the hairdressers and had her hair done. I am comforted that she didn’t suffer and have a long death.

The problem here is that the 'elderly and vulnerable' doesn't just include people have had a 'good innings', but also people in their 50s and 60s, as well as much younger people who have vulnerabilities/co-morbidities.

The overwhelming risk factor for covid, even accounting for co morbidities, is age. Specifically, being aged 80+.

A healthy person or 50 or 60, statistically, is at very little risk.

@witheringrowan

I agree with you. My DM at 81 has been spending two months every year in West Africa doing literacy work. She's slowing down now, but is much more active than I am at 51 (because of long Covid).

The generalisations on these threads are really so frustrating.

Any unecessary death is a tragedy

That’s an interesting sentence there. While I completely agree with the rest of your post regarding children and younger people who are vulnerable feeling as though they do not matter, when does the death of an elderly person become unnecessary?

However unpalatable the truth is, we will be lucky to die in old age. We WILL die. Is it unnecessary to die of dementia, heart failure, stroke, cancer or is it just Covid that makes the death of an elderly person unnecessary? Because it’s a fact of life that a disease or illness will kill us in old age. Even ‘dying of old age’ is heart failure.

witheringrowan it was very good wasn’t it? Brought home how young rather than how old many of his victims were, but also how dismissive our society is of older people and women in particular.

@TheFormattingIsWrong

But they are at risk from long Covid. That really is very debilitating. Why do people on these threads never see this?

If my grandmother had contracted COVID and died I would have been devastated as she was fit and well so it would have robbed her of her final years as she was still living life to the full

But they are at risk from long Covid. That really is very debilitating. Why do people on these threads never see this?

The risk from long covid is also pretty minimal. And in any case I thought the evidence showed that it was younger people, specifically younger women, who were more likely to suffer from long covid, not people in their 50s and 60s.