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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Liverpool Mayor acknowledges school Covid transmission

126 replies

Boredinautumn · 14/10/2020 10:53

Please see the tweet from the mayor.

Acknowledging that schools in Liverpool have more cases than hospitality. So with the highest tiered area, schools have contributed to infection rise.

twitter.com/mayor_anderson/status/1316106358664695808?s=20

Me on Saturday to No 10 officials “Gyms are safer than supermarkets, more COVID-19 transmissions come from our schools and retail than Gyms” response “we are not closing schools or restricting retail, so we can only go for Hospitality & leisure.“
Government decision not ours!

OP posts:
FreshfieldsGal · 15/10/2020 09:04

I wish the government / councils would stop dithering and close the schools for a few weeks to try to get a grip on things.

MrsWhites · 15/10/2020 09:52

I think it’s very short sighted of people to insist that schools stay open and sod the consequences to other industries who have to close to allow this to happen.

Children can catch up on education missed, whether that means extending school age, extra lessons, etc. Yes there would be obstacles to tackle to accommodate this but something has to give. So many households will be driven into poverty by the damage done to hospitality and related industries, these households will include children but hey as long as they get to stay in school!

StatisticallyChallenged · 15/10/2020 10:18

Pretty much every restriction which reduces transmission has an impact on jobs. If you close schools and childcare (they went hand in hand last time) then parents with young children often can't work, nurseries, after school clubs, childminders - all not working or with very limited work. It's equally short sighted to say schools should close to save jobs in hospitality.

There is no impact free option.

I do think that for businesses facing mandatory closure the government should be offering more support. That should be the trade - ok, we have decided that x business must close to reduce spread, we've decided that keeping a,b and c open instead is the priority- but in order to allow that to happen we will cover most of wages, fund to claim for business running costs, etc etc. For a family whose income depends on hospitality then the 2/3 probably won't cut it especially if it lasts for a while.

whydobirds · 15/10/2020 10:21

@mrswhites agreed.

My kids' housing is dependent on the income of someone who works in sales supplying alcohol to bars and restaurants. They will not be alone in having parents in that industry. There isn't the social housing stock or the social care funding available to pay for the level of poverty and homelessness we could potentially see - especially when you take into account everyone who works in fitness and the arts too.

whydobirds · 15/10/2020 10:27

The lowest impact option would be to keep everything open, financially/logistically support those who are high risk and throw money and equipment at the NHS to enable it to deal with cases as effectively as possible. Locking down in March didn't work. Unless we can hermetically seal our country then locking down now won't work either. The virus is now endemic and will just be waiting on the other side.

elenacampana · 15/10/2020 10:55

The us using the hospitality sector side of things isn’t as significant as access to education, but the people it financially supports are just as important. Most people in hospitality are on minimum wage and will be expected to survive on less than what is considered minimum should their place of work close.

This is not about the significance of going for a pint. It’s about forcing people into poverty.

ChibiTotoro · 15/10/2020 11:09

When people are saying schools must close, presumably you're referring to schools in high risk areas? There are areas in the SW with less than 20 cases per 100,000. This isn't one size fits all.

Venicelover · 15/10/2020 11:10

@year5teacher

Not all Primaries are having the 'luck' your school is having. I stand by my general comment that currently, the quality of education is not optimum.

NaughtipussMaximus · 15/10/2020 11:49

@Venicelover

Does anyone really think schools are currently delivering a quality education?
My DS's school is. They haven't had a single case, no-one has been sent home, and my DS is clearly learning lots, so yeah. I think a lot of schools will be delivering a quality education. A damn sight higher quality than I could deliver while also trying to work fulltime from home, I know that for sure.
NotOfThisWorld · 15/10/2020 11:54

It's not just a case of where the highest transmission happens. You also need to factor in how important the venue is. We simply can't shut down hospitals so even though they were a significant factor in transmission they stay open and take all the measures they can. Likewise we can't shut supermarkets - people need food. While we can theoretically close schools there is clearly going to be a massive short and long term impact on children and families - especially the most vulnerable.

We can close gyms and restaurants. That's not to say we should without careful analysis but there's no point saying 'schools are open so gyms should be open' because schools are obviously far more important than gyms. Supermarkets are far more important than restaurants.

MrsWhites · 15/10/2020 12:03

@elenacampana

The us using the hospitality sector side of things isn’t as significant as access to education, but the people it financially supports are just as important. Most people in hospitality are on minimum wage and will be expected to survive on less than what is considered minimum should their place of work close.

This is not about the significance of going for a pint. It’s about forcing people into poverty.

Exactly, I really fear that we run the risk of a new class society of ‘key workers’ and ‘non-key workers’ - whose jobs are gone or at high risk. These people may have less of a direct impact on the virus control or ‘essential’ services but they are no less important!
Mittens030869 · 15/10/2020 12:10

I’ve always found it hard to believe that children can’t pass on the virus. Do they have different germs that miraculously don’t spread to people near them if they cough without covering their mouths? If they don’t wash their hands properly do their germs miraculously disappear?

Children don’t normally suffer from Covid much if they catch it (though DD2 (8) was pretty ill for four days when she caught it in early March when I did), and I suspect they’re often asymptomatic.

Even if we accept that children don’t pass on the virus, no one is disputing that teenagers do! Which puts high school teachers at high risk when they go to work.

I feel really sorry for teachers. I don’t want schools to close (lockdown was very bad for my DDs), but the lies really aren’t helping and teachers’ concerns need to be listened to.

DilemmaDerby · 15/10/2020 12:11

6 of our teachers and various pupils tested positive, all now fine and back in school.

Liverpool doesn’t seem to be going down quietly if the gyms are anything to go by.

Mittens030869 · 15/10/2020 12:12

My DD1 (11) is in high school. There haven’t been infections connected to her bubbles, but there have been in other years. So it’s probably only a matter of time before her year is impacted.

Noitjustwontdo · 15/10/2020 12:18

Of course children can transmit the virus, they’re just less likely to transmit it than adults are.

Honestly, I’ve never felt comfortable sending my children to school but I know it’s the best place for them to be for their mental health. Lockdown was so difficult for us all and we were in the fortunate position of DH still being paid in full despite being furloughed. I’m also a teacher myself so coming from that background, homeschooling should have been easier for me- it was not. My DC often shut down when I tried to teach them, we had many many tantrums and ultimately they just wanted to see their friends. I’d hate to return to that reality, however uncomfortable I feel sending them in.

I should also say that the school has only just implemented a mandatory mask rule for parents doing the school run today! We’re in the ‘high tier’, I’ve always worn a mask and made my DC wear one too but we were just about the only ones who bothered and everyone looked at us like we were crazy. The teachers still stand at the door greeting parents, I saw one teacher actually leaving the classroom to coo over a baby one day ffs. Parents still stand around gossiping too, they all stand in groups of way more than 6...

If you want to know how or why schools are causing a spike you honestly just have to witness the school run at my DC’s school. There’s a one way system and separate entrance and exit but that’s as far as they go with social distancing.

colourofblue · 15/10/2020 12:23

Schools are utterly miserable at the moment. I don’t know what the answer is but UsForThem are jaw dropping in their selfishness.

ginnybag · 15/10/2020 12:40

At what point do we start to accept that this is triage?

When, as a population, do we get on board with the notion that we're having to make choices now between lives and livelihoods?

Yes, mitigation methods help, and God knows this shitshow of a Government could be doing better than they are at implementing them, but they aren't helping enough. Every country is seeing a resurge. Every country is struggling. It's not just us, and its happening even in the countries that are doing everything 'right'.

If you open everything, the virus spreads unchecked and people die. It's that cut and dried. Alternatively, if you close everything, you trash the economy, people's health, mental health, family relationships.

The solution's obviously a mid-point between the two, but.... where?

So, what's the numbers? We cannot save every life AND save every job. Maintaining one costs the other and will for at least the next six months. So, let's put this in the terms it is being talked about, in those Cobra meetings and briefings, with those pretty coloured graphics. It's triage now, between numbers of lives vs numbers of jobs. A generations' education vs the £x-billion in tax revenue essential to keep the country a functioning state.

Is it better to have the money in the short term and accept massive unemployment, skills shortages, immigration and state cuts in the future, or accept debt now and keep kids in schools, hoping enough of them earn enough in the future to pay it off?

Health care is a priority, for obvious reasons. Food distribution is a priority. At a certain point, retail becomes a priority in some sectors, because people need shoes/clothes/bedding etc. A lot of both food and retail could be moved online, but not all of it. Not in a short time frame.

Everything else - every other job, in every other sector - after that comes down to whether its worth the trade to keep it. Every job is crucial for the person in it; they all pay someone's housing costs, food costs, heating costs, they all contribute to the tax pot.

Hospitality isn't essential infrastructure, any more than the Arts, or Sport, or Hairdressing, or foreign holidays, and frankly, they've already had a smoother ride and a lot more support than any of those sectors. No-one actually needs access to a pub to survive, any more than a theatre, football match, haircut, trip to Spain to sit on a beach So, just like those jobs, hospitality jobs are only worth what they're worth to the economy and to the people in them. The country can function without them.

Which means asking - how many daily deaths is the pub trade worth? It's brutal, but its the reality of the situation. What about sport? Holidays? Hairdressers? Theatres? Any other industry you can think of? How many lives are we willing to lose to protect those livelihoods? Are we okay with 5,000? 50,000? 100,000?

None is not an option, not if you want people working.

TheHoneyBadger · 15/10/2020 13:00

No energy to say anything coherent right now so just marking place.

Fluffybutter · 15/10/2020 13:07

@MrsWhites

I think it’s very short sighted of people to insist that schools stay open and sod the consequences to other industries who have to close to allow this to happen.

Children can catch up on education missed, whether that means extending school age, extra lessons, etc. Yes there would be obstacles to tackle to accommodate this but something has to give. So many households will be driven into poverty by the damage done to hospitality and related industries, these households will include children but hey as long as they get to stay in school!

Er.. what about the fact that a very large majority of parents won’t be able to work if their children DON’T get to go to school? It’s not just about pubs and hospitality, it’s about everyone !
NotOfThisWorld · 15/10/2020 13:15

It's not as simple as kids catching up on education later though. There are children who are at risk of abuse or neglect who are identified at school. There are families who simply can't cope with their children at home for long due to mental health or other issues. There is also the issue of a massive divide emerging between kids in homes with internet and laptops to work from, nice quiet desks and parents who will make sure they're up and signed in and homes where kids won't be getting a square meal, can't afford the heating on during the day, children who will be exposed to violence and neglect. There are children who will develop mental health issues.

It isn't simply a case of a short blip in reading scored which can then be caught back up.

PracticingPerson · 15/10/2020 14:57

@NotOfThisWorld

It's not as simple as kids catching up on education later though. There are children who are at risk of abuse or neglect who are identified at school. There are families who simply can't cope with their children at home for long due to mental health or other issues. There is also the issue of a massive divide emerging between kids in homes with internet and laptops to work from, nice quiet desks and parents who will make sure they're up and signed in and homes where kids won't be getting a square meal, can't afford the heating on during the day, children who will be exposed to violence and neglect. There are children who will develop mental health issues.

It isn't simply a case of a short blip in reading scored which can then be caught back up.

This is all true - and should have been considered.

Just pretending the virus wouldn't spread in schools isn't helping any of these children.

Cookiecrisps · 15/10/2020 15:34

@colourofblue

Schools are utterly miserable at the moment. I don’t know what the answer is but UsForThem are jaw dropping in their selfishness.
Totally agree with you. On one of the U4T FB pages public posts not singing happy birthday in school is described as ‘inhumane’. Another poster wants to stage a demonstration against mask wearing at Tescos by getting 30 people not wearing masks to enter the shop. I appreciate that these views are not representative of all U4T supporters but quite frankly the selfishness of those two posts alone is astounding.
NotOfThisWorld · 15/10/2020 18:15

Just pretending the virus wouldn't spread in schools isn't helping any of these children.

I don't think anyone's suggesting it won't spread in schools. There needs to be a very careful cost benefit analysis, where we take into account the degree to which schools contribute to spread and also honestly consider the huge impact closing schools will be. I was manly responding to someone who said it's just a matter of kids catching up later and having a later school leaving age.

TheHoneyBadger · 15/10/2020 19:07

You could possibly include whether it's safe for staff in that analysis if you give a damn.

CallmeAngelina · 17/10/2020 19:30

Very sorry to hear that the Mayor of Liverpool's brother has now sadly died, after contracting Covid.
Flowers

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