High achieving families

[Coldemort]

this isn't about politics disclaimer
So... I ended up down a twitter/wikipedia rabbit hole around the Javid family (most famous being Sajid, but brother Baz is also very high ranking, another brother a CEO, another a millionaire property magnate).
That family are first generation, working class. What is the family dynamic that makes them so very successful?
The Johnsons of the world, I get. When you have wealth, privalege and the best education money can buy, it makes sense you are going to be in the elite.
But what is the dynamic in working class families that produce such high achieving children? (I could reference other families, but the Javids are the one that caught my eye tonight)

I also think people need to remember that success can be measure in a variety of ways.

I know a few high achieving families and education/business is ingrained throughout whatever they do. They're not discussing Love Island or Strictly in the lounge in the evening or over the dinner table, they're discussing current affairs, exams, their businesses etc. When they're at the pub, they're making contacts, telling each other about new opportunities, etc. The elder siblings/parents are helping the younger ones with homework, not just telling them to go and do it. The dynamics are really quite fascinating.

There is one family in particular, where multiple generations live together and siblings, uncles/aunts etc live next door or a few doors away. They're all running their own businesses. It's exhausting trying to keep up with what they're doing. There's hairdressers, convenience shop owners, web designers, fast food shops, importer, ebayer, Amazon seller, all within a few doors of each other all close relatives. They're constantly telling each other of new opportunities, passing each other contacts, etc. What is more interesting is that the older generations are the "hard" workers, i.e. fast food, shops, etc (Uncles, Aunts, grandparents), the middle generation (parents) are the web designers, importers and Amazon sellers, but the younger generation are being guided towards becoming doctors (some are currently in medical school), so it's fascinating to see how their "jobs" are changing through the generations.

[quote bambamthankyouboo]@SchrodingersImmigrant agreed but luck does play a big part. Lots of people work hard and still don't achieve their goals for a variety of reasons.
What about all those hard working actors and musicians who are extremely talented but never make it?
Or the talented sports people who suffer career ending injuries?
Or anyone who's health issues or life events hold them back?
It's importance to recognise the part luck plays in any journey to success and that doesn't undermine hard work.
[/quote]
The fact that you are breathing could be considered luck then. You can say about literally anything, "it's luck".

While I absolutely agree there is an element of luck, I don't agree luck plays as big part as some make out. Working smart is considerably bigger factor.

Something that people usually forget is that genetic ability depends on the right environment to be expressed

Yes exactly. The idea that the children of wealthy people go to Oxford simply because the intelligence just happens to be distributed in the small percentage attending expensive schools is arant nonsense and there is no evidence to support it that stands up to demographic scrutiny or challenge to the measures used.

I don’t know about the Javid family - but you do mention first generation immigrants. There is intelligence, luck, opportunity... but aspiration, determination, willingness to take risks and self belief play a huge part. And anyone who immigrates has shown those in bucketloads before they even have children.

High achievers have the perfect storm of personality traits, luck and circumstance. It is true that a large number come from under privileged backgrounds, however this isn’t always the case. Drive and ambition need to be there of course, but so do all the other factors.

I know the guy who wrote the Serendipity Mindset. Perhaps unsurprisingly, he seemed very unhappy. We were both waiting tables to fund our respective studies. I've not read the book. I would have thought the #1 attribute that is required for success is self belief. You need much more than that (including luck), but without that I don't think even the hardest working, brightest child will fulfil their potential.

@lazylinguist
“People usually enjoy what they're good at though.“

Its not that simple. In fact frequently people don’t or have in fact never really thought about where their strengths lie, particularly relative to others/wider society. Or if you prefer, their competitive advantage.

So much is personality as well, just an innate wish to better themselves, want better, or strive for the best. In that way it doesn't matter if people have opportunity and wealth, of course it helps incredibly but they need to have that inner something too- all the classes and extracurricular activities won't help someone who doesn't want/avail of them

What’s interesting is the offspring of these highly successful people often struggle.

I think it’s a tenacity combined with a hard work family culture plus some adversity eg racial discrimination or family strife.

While I absolutely agree there is an element of luck, I don't agree luck plays as big part as some make out. Working smart is considerably bigger factor.

I think the biggest factor is putting yourself in the way of luck. DP and I have both come from big, poor families. We're doing really well for ourselves, our siblings run the whole gamut. The difference is DP and I have chased it - really put ourselves out there, whereas our siblings have all stayed put/taken a sedate/safe path. It's all about what your priorities are and what you value.

I'm not saying luck isn't a factor - we've had plenty of bad luck until we hit some good, but none of the opportunities for either type of luck would have been there if we'd just taken a job in the local town and settled down there rather than doing everything from sleeping in cars to packing a suitcase and moving country with the kids in 3 days.

I think debating 'how much' is luck and how much hard work is pointless and a bit silly: they're both necessary but not sufficient conditions. I just wish we were a bit more willing societally to acknowledge the role of luck and that we don't all start from an equal playing field. People hate admitting it even with things that are pure luck - for instance, almost everyone I know who has bought a house has had family help, and almost without exception they've been cagey/secretive about this and presented buying a house as an achievement predicated entirely on their own work. I was very open about the help we'd had for the deposit for our first house and people treated it like I was disclosing something a bit shameful or distasteful, like I'd started talking about my thrush or something.

I think 'success' is often more linked to personality than hard work. Just look at the data on the proportion of CEOs that have psychopathic traits

www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/04/08/the-science-behind-why-so-many-successful-millionaires-are-psychopaths-and-why-it-doesnt-have-to-be-a-bad-thing.html

I have a friend who is really successful in financial terms (earns £500k a year) yet is pretty lazy and has never had to work hard. I wouldn't say he is a psychopath but he has a winning combination of an optimistic and charismatic personality and the intelligence to succeed.

If you look at people like JK Rowling and Richard Branson, resilience to failure and a devil-may-care attitude toward risk once you are already at the bottom.
I personally know someone who is very successful in oil who set out to make money...i.e. he made his educational and career decisions very strategically in that direction. He had been from a poor single parent family, useless dad etc and he wanted better for his own family. He has succeeded but is too money focused really.
The stratospherically successful people that I know are all extremely creative thinkers with broad interests, highly articulate and are without exception passionate workaholics.

The kanneh-masons family is interesting, apparently there's no sibling rivalry between all 7 of them!

My background is working class and I'm surrounded by high achievers who haven't an ounce of empathy or compassion between them.

I was lucky to have come across some great teachers who helped me onto a very different path where I feel rich in my life and this is worth more than money.

Good teachers. You often hear successful people remembering a teacher who believed in them and encouraged them to study hard.

An interest developed at a young age into something different and which led to success.

Access to books and the drive to read.

Good role models.

Luck: I do think that some things are down to bad luck and will put unsurmountable obstacles on your path. Such as a parent dying young, illness, an accident at the wrong time in your studies or at the beginning of your career.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow

What’s interesting is the offspring of these highly successful people often struggle.

I think it’s a tenacity combined with a hard work family culture plus some adversity eg racial discrimination or family strife.

A lot of my friends from school have parents who were raised working class but then became pretty high earners, including me. What's interesting is that we did very well academically, where the goal posts are very set and clear, but since then we're mostly fairly middling (I'm including myself and DH in this). We mostly aren't as successful as our parents were at the same age and certainly not in relative terms, given the much bigger advantages we started with. I think it probably is a lack of motivation - I never really thought about salary as a key consideration in a career and I do think that's because I was used to money just being around, whereas my dad was very driven to never return to the poverty of his childhood. Self-made people have children who don't need to make themselves and so who sometimes struggle to find a path. That said, there's a definite glass floor - 'mediocrity' for middle-class people still normally looks like relative comfort, ease and financial security.

@hardbackwriter I do agree with this. Some people I know have had financial luck eg inheritance windfall or just a really lucky professional opportunity which they have made the most of. It's definitely a thing but the families in question make their own.

I don't think it's just hard work. It's about whether your parents - and you - know what to prioritise. It changes a bit generation to generation, but obviously some subjects are more academic and enable more opportunities, while others do not and aren't as 'academic'. If you are bright, do not have any conditions which hugely affect your ability to do most schoolwork (easily learn to read etc) and your parents know to prioritise/encourage focus in certain areas - or you happen to stand out in these areas naturally - then it's easier to succeed.

There are plenty of people who work crazily hard for very minimal wages, but were not encouraged or able to prioritise 'academic' subjects so will never get into Medicine, Politics, Engineering etc. whether in work or at University. It doesn't mean those people who do get in 'work harder', some of the hardest workers I've known are those who are working at the best they can achieve against huge odds. There's often some luck around supportive adults in some people's lives as well, whether these be parents, teachers or another adult/older sibling who takes interest. The child's peers can also make some difference.

Equally, those who have gone through severe trauma, been exposed to substances in utero, have SEN that makes daily life or school work harder, have parents who neglect in some way, live through war or similar, live in chaotic homes, struggle to build attachments, have to move families often, experience real hunger due to poverty, have MH issues and so on, often struggle. There are always exceptions, but those issues definitely feed into the overall outcome of the adult that the child becomes.

Also, I find it a bit depressing that he's in a Political party that has so many negative views around immigration and poverty, and that he himself 'heralds Thatcher as an inspiration'. To me, that doesn't say confidence and success. It shows a lack of understanding of why people need support, why they're living in poverty and a denial around the fact that not everyone can 'work their way up'.

I used to know a couple who were like this. Both came from a pretty deprived background and had done well to get a step up.

The problem was, they never stopped. Everything they did was about how they would climb to the next rung and where they would go next. I felt really sorry for their son when he came along because all that pressure was put on him. If he showed any interest in anything at all, they got a tutor or a coach in for him. He couldn’t just enjoy cycling, he had to compete. He couldn’t just enjoy tennis, he had to compete. He was the most competitive child in quite an unpleasant way. Everything was about how clever he was, she even tried to claim when the uber posh school she sent him to decided to hold him back from starting school, it was apparently because he was too clever and his peers would feel bad that the youngest child in the class was cleverer than they were. 🙄 Even her parrot was the cleverest, look how wonderful he is at talking.

Things went sour with us when I organised a sponsored buggy push and the two of them treated it like the olympics. Running round the track, lapping everyone and saying they were “winners”. The other parents were quite pissed off at their behaviour and I ended up apologising for their behaviour.

They might have lots of money but they work ridiculously long hours and have very little down time. I have no idea how they will be dealing with all this as much of their income comes from her massive bonuses for hitting sales targets which she won’t be getting at the moment. That level of stress wouldn’t be worth the “success” to me.

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

First-generation immigrant families do usually have a very strong desire to succeed - often to get back the status that they lost in having to move continents. At DS's super-selective the ones with the real drive tended to be those very ones. They weren't usually the brightest but hard work, tuition and determination goes a long way (as I often remind my own children but to little avail!).

This is so true. When I worked in a school with a large number of children from first generation immigrant families we were told to be very careful when writing reports. Any sort of negativity, however well meaning, could lead to serious consequences for the child as their paretns very very, very ambitious for them. I once taught a Chinese boy who came without a word of English and in those days there was no formal support, When he left less than three years later as his father had a new job in the States he wrote us a beautilful letter, 4 sides of A4, in it he said the first words of English he learned were Stop running! I honestly think we do children no favours having in-class support in their own language.

And not only about whether you know what to prioritise: it's also about what you think worth prioritising. The most driven people in my family are either creative or scholarly: they work like nobody's business but I doubt they'll ever make a fortune. Other driven people may find it's their very drive that makes them take on relatively unremunerated tasks as nurses, teachers, or campaigners: because to them success lies in making a difference.

I would say being able to present yourself in an attractive light is more important than it used to be. There's a lot more CV polishing going on, self-marketing and attention to personality over character.

If you are introverted by nature, the odds are stacked against you more than used to be the case, I feel.

Its not that simple. In fact frequently people don’t or have in fact never really thought about where their strengths lie, particularly relative to others/wider society. Or if you prefer, their competitive advantage.

Yes that's probably true. I guess I was really referring to strengths in terms of things like being good at science or music etc. But you're right - it's just as important to take into account your character strengths and weaknesses and your interpersonal skills etc when choosing a career. I'm a teacher and have met quite a few teachers who are great at their subject, but really very unsuited to teaching!