to think I’m not being unreasonable (divorce)

[BettyBroderick]

We are divorcing. Kids are pre teens, some mild disabilities.
My pension pot is 400
His pension pot is 725
Cash/shares 40
I’m SAHM, no income
He earns 85k
House equity 500
Mortgage -50

I want to keep the house, with no mortgage,
Not so bothered about anything else. Is that fair?

He wants to sell the house to release the equity and us both buy somewhere each, mine outright, and him using his as a deposit and then remortgaging. He wants the kids 50:50 so no child maintenance and also wants a clean break. We are both 50.

I think he’s not being fair. AIBU?

and forget all this nonsense about “fair”. FFS this ain’t Mary poppins. You see a solicitor and you get what you can. This is business and what you get now has to last you the rest of your life. His work life capacity is unaffected and carries on. You are starting from scratch, during a pandemic, with businesses shutting (hello..,cineworld people), so not sure where this “magical” job is going to come from when there are thousands looking for work with recent experience on their CV unlike you. Go see a good solicitor and take emotion out of it.

I was a stay at home mum and grandmother. My grandson lived with me as did my son
When we divorced after over 30 years of marriage we had no dependent children.
I got the paid for house

I got to keep my savings
He got money from our house in Florida After the mortgage was paid
He got to keep his pension
He got his debt that he racked up after leaving the marriage
He was living with his girlfriend in her house by the time we divorced so he didn’t need our house was how the judge put it

I’m not putting up details but I reckon I got 72 per cent and he got 28 per cent

H also had fabulous earning capacity And was now working In Dubai. I supported his career all those years

Someone I consulted was very much in favour of the pension pot.
My ex apparently only had about 50k
It doesn’t have to be 50:50 though

YANBU, OP. Some of these responses seem purposely contrary to rile you up.

It definitely won't be 50/50 and 50% split of assets. You've been disadvantaged career-wise and are the children's primary caregiver. He's dreaming even asking for a clean break. A friend in her late 40s just did a similar split and she got over 70% of everything including the house, half of his pension and child maintenance. He bitched and moaned about being hard done by - then bought a flat a few months later because his earning power is so much more. She'd have been left renting for years if they'd split everything 50/50.

Make sure your solicitor is on the same page as you from the start. Good luck!

The Op has not been disadvantaged that's the main point.
She can not work due to a disability. Not because they made a joint decision for her not to work.
He didn't get a say in it so they may not hold him liable.

Yes you're being greedy and unreasonable

Why shouldn't he be allowed to buy a home of equal status?

You didn't give up work to have and raise children you gave up work due to a non related accident

If we equalised the pension, and I got half the equity there isn’t enough for me to get a house big enough for me and the kids nor can I service a mortgage, whereas he retains his earning ability.

I kind of think this is how things are though. You don't have the earning potential to live the lifestyle you've been accustomed to and while this is not your fault neither is it his. You will need to look at what kind of places you can afford with the equity and cut your cost accordingly. He should be able to do similar for the 50% he has them so 2 smaller more modest homes. As someone who works full time with 4 kids and a partner who's often away I'd be annoyed if it was assumed I couldn't look after my children in the event of a split just because I work.

Just be wary of relying on child maintenance as a way of funding your lifestyle. He could lose his job. He could hide his earnings. He could remarry and have triplets.

You need to think creatively about how you can generate income independent of your ex.

Good luck.

Go to mediation. It took all the stress out of my husband's divorce and they divided everything fairly.

I just wanted to add as well - I am a high earner and actually do the vast majority of the child “work” in our house including pick up/drop offs etc... I can do this for a variety of reasons, including my work location and flexibility coupled with the occasional tea club.

Just because the OP’s soon to be ex is a high earner does not mean he won’t take 50% of the children’s care. He might use holiday clubs etc... but so do millions of other parents. He might be allowed to wfh more following Covid. He might chose to change his lifestyle to accommodate them and see them more.

My brother, despite agreeing to a 50/50 split with his kids on divorce and being the higher earner so agreeing to a generous clean break (which included ongoing maintenance for the kids only ie not spousal support) has the kids way more than his ex wife.

However, ongoing maintenance can be dealt with later (through the CMA if needed) if he doesn’t keep up his end of the childcare load. The OP needs to deal with the asset split now.

Yes, the OP might be entitled to just over 50% of the assets, but it is unlikely the court will not expect the OP to support herself - spousal support is very very rare now. It’ll be a matter for negotiation as to how it’s exactly split (which will be better than paying legal costs to fight it in court if it can be avoided). He might agree to a slightly bigger payment now to protect his pension, but the starting point is 50/50 if kids are 50/50 unless there are mitigating factors. I cannot see how giving the OP the house AND paying off its mortgage is fair to the ex.

Perhaps he could take a mortgage on the family house stay there and you move into a cheaper property? That way the children still have some stability.

Keep your pension, ask for 400K for a house if that works out at approx 50/50 and have a fresh start.

My ex has the children 2 overnights a week.

I was advised by my solicitor to go for an 80/20 split in my favour, as I was in a similar situation to you, or 70/30 if we settled outside of court.

We settled outside of court and I feel it was a fair outcome.

I wouldn't ask on mumsnet to be honest, people here are always funny about splitting assets and divorce especially with sahms.

Obviously you do need to split 50-50 and it doesn't sound like him having 50% custody will work. While your proposal sees you getting around half it means your ex has no liquid capital to invest on a new house do I see why he wouldn't want it. I do think a smaller house for you and some level of support post divorce might be more practical.

There is also the question of the children's disabilities. You mention they would need trained carers for after school or holiday care if you were working. This would make working difficult or maybe mean that you would be working to pay the carers if suitable people could even be found. How is your husband proposing to deal with that on his 50% of the care? It appears that your husband was very happy for you to deal with the children's disabilities for many years and perhaps that needs to be recognised. Has he ever taken care of them and does he have any idea of what is involved? I mean it's all very well him saying he will do 50% care if he's actually never done it.

From your user name, is there another woman? Best she get to know the children asap really.

I’d also add that you are also not the reason he is able to have a high earning job. I know plenty of people who earn well and have kids, including mothers without the benefit of a stay at home dad.

Yes, you doing the majority of the childcare makes it easier for him to advance, but it wasn’t the only reason and he probably would have got there anyway - even if it took a bit longer as a result of him juggling kids.

I’m not saying you’ve not done an important job, and made his live easier, but I am saying you can’t take all credit for him having the job he has.

The issue is pensions are not dealt with as cash and are seen as lower in value than cash. He'll need liquid capital to set up a home and it's all worked out based on needs and potential earning power. Luckily we had a small rental, enough for a deposit on a property for my ex. I had to give him all my savings and and he got to keep his handsome pensions. I don't have one. I got to keep the family home. It worked out 65/45 in the end.

I work, but because my overheads were small with a small mortgage I would be allowed to take on (I wouldn't have got much more as my earnings are low). He earns far far more so although split was equalish, he was able to take on a bigger mortgage so less liquid capital but the payoff was he got to keep his precious pensions.

absolutely rubbish some of the replies on here and they haven’t seen a solicitor recently about divorce. Do not agree to anything until you’ve consulted somebody. You don’t have to go to court but I would strongly urge you to book and pay a couple of hundred quid to have an hour appointment for advice and to give you the fair assessment of what you should be asking for.

Don’t disadvantage yourself. My husband didn’t want to go to court and wanted 50/50. Of course he did. Until I saw a solicitor I didn’t realise that I was in fact due much more than that.

Oh Mumsnet makes me cross.

Firstly there is a difference between a good solicitor and a bad one. Get one with strong feminist credentials and they’ll recognise that you’ve financially disadvantaged by your womb. They’ll fight for you in a way that a procedural man wont.

Secondly it doesn’t have to be “fair” life isn’t and you’ve made his life easy to date so go for everything you can get. At this point you don’t need to be a people pleaser, you need to get everything you can. His earning potential is good, he’ll be fine.

I’d fight for the house for stability for the kids and maybe it’s been specially adapted for you. Where I live (Sussex) 550 won’t buy a huge house at all and 250 is flat territory. If your kids have SEN the space may be incredibly helpful for their wellbeing. HOWEVER, I would also seriously think about whether this outweighs the fact that you will remain in your marital home (and bedroom) which makes it hard to move on from your soon to be old life.

I don’t really agree that divorce means a 50:50 split financially and frankly he’s only saying this so that he gets 50% of the financial assets. There is a strong argument that it should be split on the basis of need and as you will end up with the kids, you need a bigger house. He buy a flat and earn more and climb back up the property ladder, you can’t.

I think you should get mediation and point out things like - he’ll need 6 weeks holiday, to be able to start work late and finish early on his days. He might get that generous leave allowance (I get 6 weeks in public sector) but he might be planning to offload them to childcare or something which you’ve indicated may not meet their needs.

So you may find you need to release capital to him if he needs a deposit. How much of the mortgage will you be able to handle? It's rubbish and worrying OP but at least you have some assets to get both of you back on track. Some are left with not much at all.

I'm in a rush and haven't read the replies but as your numbers and situation are similar to mine, I wanted to respond. You've got a bit of a road ahead of you I'm afraid of negotiations.
It isn't about what's fair, it's about who needs what.
You will need money to live off, he will need a deposit for a house.
With similar ish numbers, I've ended up with an equity free house, he has virtually all the pension, but is having to pay me spousal maintenance of £800 per month until our youngest is 14.

Why is your minimum wage earning caiacity next to zero? Plenty of people exist on minimum wage.

What's wrong with a 250k mortgage free home? Right Move literally lists thousands of 3 and 4 bedroom houses within that budget, including in the south east.

Which area of the country do you live in and how old are your children? Are they likely to leave home soon and live relatively independently?

Even if you did get the 500k house outright, it makes far more sense for you to sell it and buy a 250k house and either invest the other 250k or do something with it that will benefit your children, such as putting them through uni or giving them a house deposit.

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I really don’t understand the obsession that divorcing women seem to have over keeping the children in the same house, it’s just selfish. Kids move house all the time, it really won’t do them any harm to downsize and have two smaller homes. It’s much better for them to have two equal sized homes than one big home and and a flat where they stay with their Dad, even if it is only every other weekend.

I agree you will not be able to afford the running costs of the current family home. Yes, the cm may pay for the upkeep for the forseeable, but this will stop eventually and then you will have to downsize and sell.
I can understand your desire to keep your home for the children, having been there myself. But realistically you must look to the next 5 -10 years and how you will manage then.
If you can work then the courts will expect you to support yourself even if it is minimum wage.
Spousal maintenance is rarer these days, however I was awarded life time sm through the courts some seven years ago. I eventually managed to get this replaced with a lump sum eventually which meant I could purchase a smaller house which enabled me to be mortgage free.

I think you’ll be able to get more than 50/50 but keeping the house and him laying it off isn’t feasible. He can argue at his age in life he wants to start winding down his job , so his income could be reduced. He also might not be able to get a mortgage that would entail him getting the same type of house because of his age now. A lot of people in high earning jobs are very stressed and take early retirement so that will be a factor. He might want to access his pension in the next 10 years if he’s over 50 so would need a good chunk of cash for a deposit.

Additionally op I would pay a visit to the Wikivorce government funded website where you will get great advice from many people who volunteer and have a legal background.
Be sure to share your complete details, ages, length of marriage etc etc.
With their help and knowledge I went on to represent myself in court 5 times.
In fact through that website I had the support of a District Judge who eventually travelled some distance to meet me in person. He went on to help me and wrote my Position Statements for the Final Hearing when I was up against my ex's barrister.