To think that one cannot be both a Catholic and a Feminist?

[applesauce1]

Inspired by another thread on here, my husband and I had a lively debate about this earlier. I think that a Catholic person cannot also be a Feminist for many reasons, but among these reasons, that an anti-abortion stance is an anti-woman stance.
My husband thinks that a Catholic could be pro-choice and therefore be a feminist, or that a feminist might also disagree with abortion.
He is a cultural Catholic (now atheist), and probably took this stance because he'd like to think that his mum is a feminist. In the end, we agreed to disagree. I think it is a black and white issue and he would like to think there are grey areas.
Do you think there's a way that someone can be a Catholic and also a feminist?

@Aloethere agree with what you have posted.

I was raised in a Catholic family (RC schools, Mass every Sunday etc ) though now consider myself agnostic.

I struggled with Catholicism from an early age....had difficulties believing in God etc. More recently I've been passed off with them not accepting their responsibility for the sexual abuse that took place, particularly in Ireland.

However, the majority of Catholics do not practice everything it preaches, especially in regards to contraception. Many will be anti abortion as in Catholicism life has started by then, whereas contraception prevents any life starting. However many would still see that in some cases (eg rape) abortion maybe an option.

I think most Catholics would rather divorce than, say, staying in a violent marriage.

[quote KissM]@GoldenOmber I think it is difficult to have a measured view on an institution that has actually harmed your father, and probably fairly easy to intellectualise the harms done by other institutions that are distant and remote from you.

@TheSeedsOfADream I actually think your comment comparing people rejecting and railing against institutional abuse to racism is pretty disgusting.

@Readandwalk the church certainly does not condone abuse but it sure as shit does cover it up. They are quick enough to sell the land with babies in so people can't find them. This is happening now.[/quote]
My comment wasn't about "people". It was to a poster whose hatred for other groups is based on her personal, but not universal experience.

You compared a woman speaking out against an institution that perpetuates and covers up abuse to a racist. That is disgusting.

If the Catholic church allows females to priests, abortion, same sex marriage, contraception, and fully helps police/other organisations/families and does whatever they can possibly to do with regards to protecting the church with sex abuse and the confession is not protected so what there is said can be reported and is welcoming and open to all people then sure be considered feminist.

Yes individuals pick and mix what they want in Catholicism bit until the church itself is then it is just words

i think a lot of parts of all major relgions are deeply patriarchal and sexist, but id be loathe to say that a catholic couldnt be feminist or a muslim couldnt be feminist etc

The doctrine of the Catholic faith teaches that abortion is wrong (unless Pope Francis has changed that - I don’t think he has).

One cannot be a devout Catholic and also a feminist. There are other fundamental inequalities between the sexes - the most obvious one that women cannot take on the role of priest. Someone will no doubt be along to say that it’s fine, because they can become nuns. But that role is not the same and it simply does not occupy the same status as Priest.

In many Irish families it was considered a job for life. Many Catholic families had one son join the priesthood for job security. I may be wrong but I think not allowing them have an adult sexual relationship didn't help.
2 priests have been ordained in the past 6 years.

It is amazing how many people on Mumsnet are absolutely convinced they know more about Catholicism than the Catholics do. You should come and teach RCIA some time, they're always short of well-informed people...

It is amazing how many people on Mumsnet are absolutely convinced they know more about Catholicism than the Catholics do. You should come and teach RCIA some time, they're always short of well-informed people...

It's amazing how indoctrination can blind people to the realities of the organisations they choose to support.

I'm a staunch atheist and pretty anti organised religion, but even I'm baffled that you thought someone couldn't be Catholic unless they agreed with every single aspect of the church's teachings. I expect the vast majority of religious people, including priests/vicars etc, at the very least have bits they're not too sure they agree with. The whole history of religion is no doubt littered with bits of doctrine that have been cast aside, quietly ignored or not mentioned because people don't agree with themin modern times.

I think the church would be a happier and healthier place if both sexes could serve as priests and if they could marry (not each other 🤣 exclusively!). I think many (most) catholic’s would agree but they also understand that change takes time. The church was not set up to repress women rather it existed in a time when women were more oppressed.

I find the defensiveness really interesting.

Many of the comments on this thread and the other thread criticising the RC church are from people who were born and raised Catholic. Many are Irish themselves.

It's easy to say that those criticising the actions of the church and some of the more controversial aspects are ignorant angry Catholic racists but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

For people who are outside, as it were, reading it. It's not exactly very persuasive as an argument either.

I'm Anglo Catholic. And very much a feminist.

I'm absolutely convinced that you can be both.

It's amazing how indoctrination can blind people to the realities of the organisations they choose to support.

I'm not disputing the evil things that the Catholic church has happily allowed to be done in its name. I am, however, disputing the idea that Catholics are all literalists, or need non-Catholics to explain to them that 'priest' and 'nun' are not equivalent jobs, or that priests live in mansions with a flock of servants.

You're free to think whatever you like about the Catholic church or any individual Catholic within it, really you are. But on a thread like this, surely it doesn't come as a surprise that women who consider themselves Catholics and feminists are going to share their views? What do you want us to say? "Well I've spent a long time thinking about feminism and Catholicism myself as both are so important to me, but no, OP, don't listen to me, I'll just defer to someone who learnt about Catholicism from Angela's Ashes and Father Ted to tell you all about this one"?

When a woman is elected pope, maybe.

Until that day the Catholic church is an androcracy and therefore fundamentally at odds with feminism.

The thread that started this was about an adult convert though.

I totally understand how cultural Catholics, for want of a better word, can square things.

What I can't understand is how someone who has feminist ideas, and comes from a background of no religion. Decides that of all the organised religions/ or other alternative belief systems, decides actively to become RC.

To me it's two completely different things.

Well I didn't read whatever thread it was that 'started this', so I can't speak to whoever that person was or what they think or believe.

You're free to not understand how anyone could consider themselves both Catholic and feminist, of course you are. The OP however seemed interested in trying to understand, which is why posters who consider themselves both Catholic and feminist have posted.

I didn't say I didn't understand :/

The point about growing up with it Vs converting is one I find interesting.

I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on that assuming it's ok with you.

@NiceGerbil

I didn't say I didn't understand :/

The point about growing up with it Vs converting is one I find interesting.

I'd be interested in hearing other people's views on that assuming it's ok with you.

You literally just said "what I can't understand is" - oh why am I even bothering.

I'm not telling you what you can and can't hear. I'm not telling you what you can and can't think or believe or care about. I was, fairly politely, trying to correct you about what you perceive as 'defensiveness', but never mind that either. Go right ahead! I'll just continue with defending the Magdalene laundries or whatever else it is you think we do.

There seem to be two things that are being conflated on this thread; the theology of Catholicism and where it either agrees or are at odds with feminism, and the actions of members of the Catholic church that many Catholics and non-Catholics alike find abhorrent, bound up on an organisational structure that has its flaws.

Like I said previously, the theology is constantly evolving through debate within the modern world, but I'd think it's fair to say it's behind the curve compared with the liberalism of our modern society and that's where it clashes with feminism.

I would say that on the whole, the married Catholic priests are better communicators.

?

You know nothing of my background.

'
I totally understand how cultural Catholics, for want of a better word, can square things.'
'You're free to not understand how anyone could consider themselves both Catholic and feminist, of course you are. '

Missing out chunks of what people write in order to prove some kind of point kind of just shows that you're not really interested in a discussion i think.

It's not just the actions of members though. That makes it sound like it was just a few wee rogue perverts and murderers who went off message. The Catholic church at heart is an organisation that within living memory was absolutely committed to the degradation, abuse and death of many people and that continues now to lie about it. It was and is bound up with state control and intimidation, anti human and anti family practices. And it's a lot wider than "do you agree with abortion or not?"

Missing out chunks of what people write in order to prove some kind of point kind of just shows that you're not really interested in a discussion i think.*

Interested in a discussion with the OP. Less interested in a discussion with people who see it as suspicious ‘defensiveness’ if I point out the high levels of total ignorance in general on here about what Catholics believe.