Ban the term "so-called" honour killings"

[areallthenamesusedup]

Am I wrong to think that we should stop using the term as it is sugar coating murder?

Using the word 'honour'...even with the prefix 'so-called'....is dressing something as "cultural" and thus disguises that these killings are just plain & simple misogyny.

Am I wrong to think that "so called-honour killings" are just murder.

It seems to be a term in wide use but I am genuinely puzzled why it is acceptable.

Pride based murder? Pride can be seen as a bad thing, whereas honour is generally positive.

Totally agree with you.

It's murder. The cultural belief that some hold is that the woman has brought dishonour on the family/community and that's why they call it 'honour' killing to restore family honour. However, they are just murderers and society should stop adding the word 'honour' which makes some think it is justified. It never is.

It is a hate crime and should come with an enhanced penalty.

Restore honour. Do people really say ‘that Phil - great man. Murdered his daughter for wearing makeup. Great guy.’

@Divebar

No. It’s just a way to categorise a killing / murder which provides context like “ domestic murder” Or “ stranger rape” - it doesn’t glamourise anything. Far worse is terminology like child porn rather than child abuse images which you see user frequently.

I agree with this but also strongly believe in the wording ‘child prostitute’. It doesn’t glamourise it, infact in brings home the true horror the of crime by naming it. Calling it ‘child abuse or any other general term e.g assault absolutely does not drive it home or highlight the degree to which the child has suffered. Infact, these general terms hugely minimise the victims suffering and can impact on targeting the right help for victims. All child abuse/assault is abhorrent, all are heinous, but we must be able to distinguish between the type of help and support a child who has been touched inappropriately needs v a child who has spent everyday the last 3yrs serving men sexually in return for money in order for that child to access the right support. It doesn’t to think in the aforementioned scenario, both children need the same help.

It also serves to make the Public more aware of the dangers are. So we know what to look out for. If someone said to me, ‘children on TikTok, can be exploited’, I wouldn’t really understand what they meant, but when I heard, ‘child videos/pics are being targeted for ‘child porn’ on tiktok’, we all knew exactly what that meant. We know where the potential dangers are and there prevalence. This too is very important.

All child abuse is abhorrent and disgusting and I hate that we have to beducated about it, but we live in a society where we have no choice but to raise our awareness that child abuse is not just one thing. It doesn’t soften it by naming it and giving it a type, it exposes the true horror of it by its very naming as an oxymoron, ‘CHILD and PROSTITUTE’.

I really don’t think “so-called honour killing” sugar coats it. In fact to me it shows the crime up as the horror it is. That particular phrase to me means “murdered by the men in her family for not being subservient” It’s horrific and shocking and to me much more so than simple plain “murder”.
The fact this is happening needs naming and spotlighting. Obviously if victims or survivors want to suggest another wording then I’d follow them but it does need showing up.

@SerenityNowwwww

Restore honour. Do people really say ‘that Phil - great man. Murdered his daughter for wearing makeup. Great guy.’

Of course not. You clearly don’t understand the culture. Now that isn’t an excuse, it’s a terrible thing in any culture but to eradicate it you must have a proper understanding of how those who practise it think, it doesn’t help by trivialising it the way you have in your post.

No I’d don’t understand. My family don’t understand. I can’t even begin to comprehend what goes in those peoples heads. As I said - DH is from that neck of the woods and can’t understand either.

But it is said that it is about honour/pride - so do they actually believe that people think better/well if them as a result of doing this? Yes it was a flippant remark but do they actually believe that murdering their child will reflect well in them in any way? They are just evil, stupid men (and some women too).

There is no place for the mediaeval oppression of women in UK society, and certainly no place for men who think murdering a female family member makes them 'honourable'. It ranks with the murdering of old women who were thought to be witches, back in our dark and distant past.

Perhaps questions about equality should be part of the UK citizenship test.

Some of these murderers are born here.

At least here it is prosecuted as murder in the courts. In other countries it's actually seen as acceptable to kill women who shame the family. Including rape victims, shockingly.

Indeed - or order it as punishment (to the family, not the victim) by the ‘elders’. God, what a world.

@SerenityNowwwww

No I’d don’t understand. My family don’t understand. I can’t even begin to comprehend what goes in those peoples heads. As I said - DH is from that neck of the woods and can’t understand either.

But it is said that it is about honour/pride - so do they actually believe that people think better/well if them as a result of doing this? Yes it was a flippant remark but do they actually believe that murdering their child will reflect well in them in any way? They are just evil, stupid men (and some women too).

The term honour killing means something to the people who practise it and the monsters in their circle. Part of your confusion is you’re thinking that YOU are part of their audience. You and me are not. What we think (the western world) doesn’t matter to them, our thoughts are irrelevant.

The honour of their family is tied up in generations of how a woman should behave leading to good marriage prospects and eventually a good marriage. These things are all tightly woven into a family’s standing in their society. It takes just one girl to step out of line and the full force of the shame of it will fall on the entire family. Their society makes sure that the ‘family bear the full brunt of it. It will put paid to any marriage prospects for all other females in that family. The family is tarnished! (Such is the power of a woman ).

But there is a way out! Damage control is a good thing. If the family of the wayward girl can show that are suitably disgusted by their DD’s behaviour and are not behind her then instead of the whole family suffering rebuttal, just one person can be removed. You kill her in the name of family honour! Because family honour is everything, it determines your power in society. Killing her is proof to your monstrous community that your family is still ‘up there’, and has not been tarnished.

The eye sore is removed and life goes back to normal.

Oh I get it - I understand - but I don’t ‘get’ it because it just ‘does not compute’ in my brain. I still can’t believe that neighbours don’t think ‘there’s that shit that murdered his kid’. But then realistically, yes, there will be those dating ‘well done, son, honour restored’.

As I’ve said - DH is from that neck of the woods and it’s as foreign and horrifying a concept to him as being kicked in the balls is to me (sorry couldn’t think of a better one).

The neighbours won’t think that because the neighbours all share the same beliefs! Infact it is the neighbours that will first inform others of “X’s DD was seen walking home from school with a boy”. It is ingrained in the society it’s not just one family’s belief.

It’s when they travel abroad that it now seems odd plus those who have been educated back home and made a conscious decision not to practise it anymore. But it’s till ingrained, most wont find it odd, it is expected!

I disagree that it should be banned. It tells you so much more about the reason for the murder and the family responsible. If I hear so called honour killing my initial thought is it’s worse than murder because it was the family who were meant to protect her that did it and it makes me think of the horrific fear she must have suffered because a family would rather be known as murderers than as a family that allows a woman to have her own choices.

I call them 'dishonourable killings'. The term represents domestic violence, abuse and rape. These men are all born from a woman so they dishonour their own mothers. There's no place in the UK for this attitude. Frankly this is an argument for joint enterprise for all involved and I'd like to have seen 30 year sentences across the board for Banos' killing.

It’s when families get involved - mothers, uncles, brothers - there have been cases (abroad) where brothers have murdered their own sisters because they have dared to do something this disapprove of. Hate it that much then take yourself away then...

I do think there is some value and additional data in having a term that defines these types of murders, if that helps prevent them. So for instance the steps to take to prevent an "honour killing" will be different from the steps taken to prevent the murder of a teenager involved in county lines, to take the first example that pops into my head. It isn't "just murder" - it is a distinct kind of murder, with distinct causes and victims. Not just anyone can be the victim or perpetrator of this kind of murder - it is culturally circumscribed.
I agree with this, we know what an "honour killing" or "joy riding". Being called an "honour killing" does not make it less of a murder. It actually defines the type of murder it was and actually a little more horrific not that all murder is not horrific
I dont agree with OP with re Child Prostiture either. The fact that the words "child" and "prostitute" are joined together paints a picture of terrible abuse and does not imply any willingness on the childs part at all, it is just another type of child abuse

I think the word 'honour' does need to be retained, as it's important to understand the reasons why it happens. As long as it's called murder, as it's the worst kind of pre-meditated murder.

Yes, it's culturally based, but then so is FGM, which used to be called 'female circumcision'. Quite rightly we call a spade a spade with this , as it is mutilation. In the same way, so-called 'honour killings' needs to be called what it is, i.e. murder.

I think we need a different category of murder for this but I don't know what it should be called.
It's completely horrifying, an extreme form of scapegoating where a weak and vulnerable person is made responsible for the sins of the powerful
It's a way of giving free reign to the worst and most base instincts of humans, the urge to prey upon and exploit the weak, to kick people when they're already down

Those that are saying it is wrong are approaching it with a Western lens. Those that engage in these horrific murders believe it is an honour, hence the term HBV. We should fight for this not only to remain a subsection of murder, but to raise awareness even higher. Banaz Mahmod went to the police and told them she strongly suspected she would be a victim and they ignored her. They didn't have the relevant cultural knowledge of such crimes. HBV is mentioned in Parliament and programmes have been rolled out in schools across England educating pupils about the wrongs of this mentality and signposting them to help if they fear they will be a victim. There are still lots of girls (and to a much lesser extent boys) who disappear every year from schools as they have been forced/coerced into marriages back home when they thought they were only going for a holiday. In removing the HBV descriptor we are massively failing these children and young adults.

@Howlooseisyourgoose

I don’t think there is any evidence that Banaz’s father, uncle or mother knew she would be raped. It’s more likely they thought she would be killed quickly.

That doesn't make it any better to me. They walked out of their house, letting in 3 men to kill her. Realistically speaking, without a gun, how quickly could she have been killed.

She was always going to suffer and I don't understand how they could sleep at night knowing what they did.

What they did is just haunting. I keep thinking, at the very least, her mum could have told her to leave the house and go far far away and never return, because her dad was planning this.

It's absolutely vile.

The term should be murder. No honour no killing murder by family if you need to differentiate from another murder.

Those that are saying it is wrong are approaching it with a Western lens. Those that engage in these horrific murders believe it is an honour, hence the term HBV. We should fight for this not only to remain a subsection of murder, but to raise awareness even higher. Banaz Mahmod went to the police and told them she strongly suspected she would be a victim and they ignored her. They didn't have the relevant cultural knowledge of such crimes. HBV is mentioned in Parliament and programmes have been rolled out in schools across England educating pupils about the wrongs of this mentality and signposting them to help if they fear they will be a victim. There are still lots of girls (and to a much lesser extent boys) who disappear every year from schools as they have been forced/coerced into marriages back home when they thought they were only going for a holiday. In removing the HBV descriptor we are massively failing these children and young adults

I agree. I don’t thing “honour killing” implies there is honour in murder, or excuses it. It makes the point that these murders took place due to cultural beliefs that have no place in our society.

Remove the “honour”, and make it plain old murder, and we remove the ability to address the cultural justification. It needs to be made clear that no percieved “shame” is justification, and also to make western agencies aware so they can help potential victims.