Ban the term "so-called" honour killings"

[areallthenamesusedup]

Am I wrong to think that we should stop using the term as it is sugar coating murder?

Using the word 'honour'...even with the prefix 'so-called'....is dressing something as "cultural" and thus disguises that these killings are just plain & simple misogyny.

Am I wrong to think that "so called-honour killings" are just murder.

It seems to be a term in wide use but I am genuinely puzzled why it is acceptable.

‘Honour killings’ is an example of politically correct squeamishness about backward, misogynistic cultural attitudes and practices in BAME communities which involve the subjugation and abuse of women and girls.

Too many people and institutions are still prepared to turn a blind eye to such practices because they are terrified of being accused of racism. It’s sickening.

@SerenityNowwwww

I get what the supposed ‘reason’ is - I just can’t quite get my head around how murdering your child is in any way honourable.

Do they really think that people will look at them and think ‘that Phil is a really honourable man - he smothered his daughter for wearing makeup’. Do many sons her honour-killed?

Yes. That's exactly what they think. That's the entire point. The idea being that you do not accept or condone unacceptable behaviour. It's rare but some son's are murdered in honour killings. The name Coty Beavers rings a bell but I can't remember the specifics of the case.

I don't understand that, AgeLikeWine. Are you saying that calling it an honour killing is somehow trying to minimise the awfulness of the crime or imply that it's ok because it's 'cultural'? Surely any decent person who hears the term knows full well what it means and how horrific it is? It means that the person does it because of their (warped) idea of what is honourable. Not that it should be overlooked because it actually is honourable. What would be a less squeamish but suitably accurate and specific term for it?

So I think where I am getting to is my problem with the actual word "honour" ................rather than calling them honour killings we could call them say freedom killings....rather than focusing on how the male feels about something as though it is a good thing.......say its a family striking against freedom.

Sorry, I am not sure I am being very coherent in my thoughts here....I am just thinking things through, out-loud, with the help of MN.

I am watching “ Honour” - googled the case & couldn’t understand why her killers didn’t get life.

Perhaps 'honour murder' would be better? I don't think the 'honour' aspect of the term is used to try and make it sound any better than murder or sugar coat it. I think it's important to have terminology to use to describe this particular sort of crime. The charities that work in this area use the term 'honour' e.g. karmanirvana.org.uk/. In the case of Karma Nivarna, this charity was set up by someone who had faced honour based abuse. The police etc also have to have terminology to use to classify various sorts of crime and abuse. I work in adult safeguarding and we use terminology such as honour based violence. We need to so we can understand different patterns in abuse, target the people who might need support, provide appropriate services etc.

i know exactly what you mean, and it's a good point.
is it akin to the terrorist / freedom fighter descriptions.
ie should we accept the self definition of an act, where that definition is given by or relates to the self-justification in the minds of the perpetrators.
surely there s a case to challenge that, to reform the descriptor in terms that align with UK mainstream morality.

Do they really think that people will look at them and think ‘that Phil is a really honourable man - he smothered his daughter for wearing makeup’.

Actually yes. Their culture and community think it's right...

OP.. It isn't being glamorised.

This also shouldn't be called fillicide as a pp said ..because it very often involves the mother as well. She us fully aware and in some cases involved in the actual murder.

The mother of Tina Isa sat on her while her dad stabbed her to death.

The MIL and DH of Surgit Attwal arranged her murder, because she wanted a divorce. Her MIL was the mastermind.

Honour killing has no honour, but the term is used to classify this type of crime.... if ppl in certain jobs/positions took the time to learn more about it, then the victims who cry out for help may get some and be taken seriously, unlike Banaz Mahmood who went to the police 5 times and they did nothing. Absolutely nothing and she was eventually raped and murdered with the full knowledge of her parents.

www.truehonour.org.uk/
www.haloproject.org.uk/

These are some other charities who use this terminology, it seems to be the accepted terminology by those who have faced this sort of violence (apologies if this includes you OP and you just haven't said).

Personally, I don't really get your point. I don't think the term is used in good way, or like its is positive for the family members who might perpetrate this sort of abuse. However, it does specify abuse/murder committed for a certain reason i.e. around family honour.

I think the point is it has to chime with the experiences of people who might actually be affected by it. I’ve had training on this by people who spend their professional lives dealing with it - if they think using the term So Called Honour Based Violence works in terms of resonating with vulnerable children then I am going to take their word for it!

we should, as it were, reclaim the word and concept of honour.
and not allow it to be dishonoured by being used to describe or define a motive or context for murder.

Freedom killings? That sounds like killing in order to get freedom.

I watched a documentary about an ‘honour killing’ last night, it was a dil who was taken to her death by her mil and was completely orchestrated by the mil. The term ‘honour killing’ is a certain classification of murder, it describes the supposed reasoning behind the murder not who the murderer is. Honour killings are ordered and committed by women as well as men.

@AgeLikeWine

‘Honour killings’ is an example of politically correct squeamishness about backward, misogynistic cultural attitudes and practices in BAME communities which involve the subjugation and abuse of women and girls.

Too many people and institutions are still prepared to turn a blind eye to such practices because they are terrified of being accused of racism. It’s sickening.

It is indeed sickening, especially for those who have suffered within their profession for daring to challenge 'cultural' practices.
It's simply a fact that many have been afraid of challenging behaviours because the 'institutional racism' label was quickly slapped on them. The trials of large groups of men abusing children, the exposure of parents murdering their children for daring to want to live a different life are hopefully the end of the reluctance to challenge behaviours.

Yes, maybe its the "killings" term I was struggling with too....we could just call it murder.....so less ambiguous.

And yes, just watched Honour on ITV....heartbreaking......on so many fronts.

I am really not pushing back against anyone in any of this....

I was genuinely, in all honesty, just trying to understand my own thought processes....

I will absolutely follow what sufferers/service users/practitioners suggest....

(I should have posted in feminism or chat I guess....

I was genuinely just trying to think things through, out-loud....with a little MN help.

YANBU OP. Honour is absent when someone murders their child, partner or ExPartner. There is nothing honourable about murdering someone seeking to escape DV and coercive control.

I would like it to be a distinct, more harshly punished category of murder.

@areallthenamesusedup

Yes, maybe its the "killings" term I was struggling with too....we could just call it murder.....so less ambiguous.

And yes, just watched Honour on ITV....heartbreaking......on so many fronts.

The term "murder" is more ambiguous, not less ambiguous. How is being more specific somehow "ambiguous" to you? Honour killings are also called "shame killings". If that term offends you less then use that one. Truthfully, it's a tad offensive to actual victims of this type of violence that you're getting precious and offended about words because you saw it on a TV show.

Am I wrong to think that "so called-honour killings" are just murder.

Just murder? No, they're a hell of a lot more depraved than "just" murders. Mysoginistic slaughter of a member of one's own family for completely fucked up reasons. I don't know what we should call that, I don't think a word that adequately covers it has been invented yet. You're right though, honour killing is completely inappropriate and just plays into the narrative of the culturally backward, morally bankrupt scum that agree with the practice.

I do think that it is useful to have a specific name for these kinds of murders, simply because they have patterns which are specific (as in, who commits them, who is murdered, demographics etc.) and police may find it harder to collect accurate statistics, tackle them or prevent if there is no actual term to describe them

"Family member control murders" or something might work... except that that is perhaps not specific enough.

Filicide is not accurate either. The murderers are often brothers, cousins, brothers in law. Also "filicide" could be for various reasons--infanticide being the biggest one, or parents who kill a disabled child.

Been on a training course for the last two days about a related matter then finished it all off with watching Honour....that is the only reason why this has whole subject has been playing on my mind....I am really not trying to be argumentative, or chippy, or patronising or anything....I genuinely wanted to explore my thinking......nothing more.....

When white people kill family members who try to escape their control and abuse it is never called "honour killing". To me using the label "honour killing" is in a way minimising the crime, it's othering the victim and reassuring the rest of us that it won't happen to us it's just "part of their culture". I wonder whether the rates of men killing family members are different for different races and backgrounds?

YANBU, op - it's such a horribly inappropriate term. But, it's hard to come up with a comprehensible alternative which conveys the meaning, and it is (I hope) generally understood to mean a particularly vile and cowardly type of murder.

(Had a gripe at my university lecturer who kept talking about "child prostitutes"........there is no such thing......its child abuse or child exploitation......)
Bloody hell. How on earth did they not realise how bad that was?

When white people kill family members who try to escape their control and abuse it is never called "honour killing"

That's domestic violence and the issues around honour killings are different.

The white community would not be supportive of the act of murder, which is not the same in cultures where honour killings occur. They are hailed for doing it.

Domestic violence occurs in Asian/Arabic cultures and that's not the same to honour based violence.

If the terms are interused, the issues will not be fully understood.

In many cases of honour killings, the victims weren't actually trying to escape...they didn't have any idea their parents and other family members would kill or arrange for their murder.