To wish she’d stop shouting at me

[PennyCrayon85]

Three year old. Lovely and affectionate when she wants to be but goes off her nut if she’s ever told no, not just now etc.

Comes into my room at 4.45am wanting to get up and go downstairs. Is told no, too early, either to back to bed or come in beside us. Kicks off, screaming and shouting at the top of her voice, tantrums etc. This is most mornings and it is soul destroying.

She’s currently shouting the odds because it’s 8.30am and I have said she can’t do a messy craft set until later 😣

We are not shouty here. I don’t know where this is coming from but it’s driving me nuts. She’s the most strong willed child I have ever met. Single minded, will not be distracted. At the same time I do not want to show her that I will capitulate for a quiet life (as tempting as it is sometimes).

Any suggestions?!

@WisestIsShe

Also do you need to say no, if that's a trigger word? Her - I want to do the messy craft! You - ok. We'll do it when we've had a walk/wash/tidy up. Whatever.

I think small children find "no" very frustrating.

Excellent post

The answer to this is blindingly obvious. Like any repeated behaviour, she does it because experience has shown her it works. To use your own words one of you ‘eventually capitulates’. She’s not stupid, she knows what she wants and she knows how to get it - why on earth would she change her behaviour?

She is three. She is old enough to talk to. In a calm moment sit her down and tell her you and Daddy have decided that you don’t want any shouting in the house. It’s rude and disturbs other people. From now on she will never get anything she shouts for. But if she asks nicely in a polite voice you will think about what she is asking for.

And then stick to it. Always. Every time she shouts tell her quietly ‘oh what a shame, you shouted so you can’t have it’. And always make a big fuss of her when she asks quietly, say ‘Oh that was great, you asked so politely, you can certainly have X’. If it’s not a great time say ‘That was so great, you asked so politely, you can certainly have X once teeth are brushed/after lunch/whatever’.

Consistency is everything . Say what you mean and stick to it. Children need rules and boundaries to help them manage their expectations. Inconsistency is unfair and unkind to them as well as making a rod for your own back.

I can't bear shouting either. DH and I rarely raise our voices, but DD who is nearly 4 is a yeller.

That having been said, she doesn't really tantrum, and she's not shouting in abject fury... I suspect it's becuase she's too lazy to get up and talk to us, so would rather shout MUMMMAY, DADDDAAAAY, MUMMMAAAAAAY, DADDDAAAAY from her bed at 4am to let us know she's awake.

And being woken up like that, with the sound travelling up the hall, and again through the monitor...it makes me feel literally sick.

I do a lot of "indoor voices" and forced cheer, but sometimes I find myself shouting: "DON'T SHOUT AT ME" which is obviously entirely counter productive.

I had the same thing with the early morning yelling to get me out of bed. I got a gro clock and a sticker chart. I told her for every time she stayed in bed she would get a sticker. I set the clock quite early so it wouldn't be too hard for her to achieve her first stickers. I told her when she got 2 stickers she would get a small prize and then for every 3 stickers she would get another small prize. When she had filled the chart (30 stickers!) she would get a big prize. I gradually moved thr clock a bit later as she got better at winning the stickers. She did fail some days and go back to her old ways. On those days she would try and persuade me to give her a sticker but I never gave in!! On those days I was as boring as possible and told her I couldn't be fun because I was too tired from getting up in the night time. By the end of the chart she had stopped getting up early. She still has the gro clock and just goes back to sleep if she wakes up and the sun's not on it yet. It felt like it broke a habit.

I’ll post again later when I’ve more time..... you have my dd ;-)
Have you considered she may have special needs?

my, now adult daughter, was the most stubborn child imaginable. Endless tantrums! One in town Christmas shopping that was so epic she ended up with a small crowd watching.

I tried to tell myself it was good because she would need all that determination to get through life.

We all survived and she was a fairly easy teenager, she could express her wants/needs and negotiate so didn't get as frustrated.

Not saying it was easy at the time, I still have flashbacks to time in town....but it won't last for ever.

I tried sticker charts which worked sometimes. My mum left cooking chocolate (the artificial stuff) in my bedroom to keep me from disturbing her too early when I was young. I don't recommend this...though I do still kind of like the stuff.

I am going to give the Gro Clock / reward chart combo a go

Ignore. But when she kicks off back in her room and ignore until she’s quiet. Kicks off about messy craft put her on the step and wait until she’s quiet. Honestly don’t give in I had one like this - she’s fine now!

I don’t think she has any special needs, no. I think she’s just stubborn and determined.

I would echo other people who have said you need to help your daughter manage her strong emotions.

My daughter - now almost eighteen - was exactly like that. Calm and polite at school but raging as soon as she got home. It was exhausting! We tried to stay calm and just ignore.

She has turned into a very smart, passionate and funny young woman......but she suffers with depression. I think she is one of those people who naturally has a short fuse and strong emotions and I can't help wondering whether trying to suppress these feelings and 'behave' is what is making her depressed.

Now trying to encourage her to let it all out (in a good way!). Wish I had had techniques to help her more with this when she was younger.

Continue to ignore her.

I think you’re doing all the right things, nothing you do will work overnight unfortunately. It will get better eventually.
I also disagree with people who say that if you don’t nip this in the bud she will be rolling the roost.
In my experience, it’s all just a phase. Yes, you have children who grow up with no boundaries but this doesn’t sound like that.
It’s tough but you will get there.

Strong willed eh? Is that what we used to call badly behaved?

Just start getting sharp with her. Give her a proper telling off. Get angry. Can you imagine what your neighbours think? "Kids dont like to be told no" - right, well the adult world is going to be a bit of a shock isnt it?

The gro clock and reward charts sound perfect.

You need to stop giving in.

You've taught her that she can shout and strop and you'll - I think you said capitulate - now you have to get her to 'unlearn' that.

It will be bloody hard, brace yourself! It will get much worse before it gets better.

Tell her the order things will be done. Do a pictorial timetable if you think that will help. If she can see the plans that might help her. She knows what will be happening and in what order. It doesn't feel like an unknown.

If she tantrums, leave the room. Stick to the timetable.

It will take a long time and be ruddy awful for you but it will help.

She's three and this is very normal and you aren't doing anything wrong. They have strong emotions that are hard for them to handle, they grow out of it eventually when they find out it doesn't work.

My DD shouts too. Like you and others our strategies are:
Calm talk when she is in a good mood about why shouting isnt allowed

Try and distract her when she gets upset - singing Twinkle Twinkle little Star with the wrong lyrics works well. "Twinkle twinkle little shoe" Makes her laugh and is too busy correcting me to carry on shouting

If shouting continues after warnings, carry her to her room until she is ready to talk nicely.

I think those who are saying to simply "tell her off" don't have a strong willed child! This would work with DD2 but has zero impact on DD1. She is the most belligerent child when told off, has an answer for everything and will turn the situation around and blame me and will never, EVER say sorry (if she were an adult male I'd be looking up the freedom programme)

I have no advice OP just solidarity. Mine is also a screamer. It's exhausting and infuriating in equal measure. I'm hoping it's a phase she'll grow out and of but it's been going on for ages now...

Mine was like this at that age, a tantruming, demanding, screeching nightmare.
Ignoring definitely didn't work on him. He got plenty of good telling offs for his behaviour. Not out of control shouting/screaming but a very assertive/firm tone. I also started putting him in his bedroom when he kicked off which he hated, again you have to be calm but very assertive about it.

It took a long time to sink in, probably about 2 yrs because he was so defiant. But it paid off in the end. He eventually learned that he wasn't going to win and that I wasn't going to tolerate his behaviour. He's now 5 and is very compliant, easy going and polite. I only have to look at him a certain way now, if he thinks about kicking off (which is rare) and he checks himself and stops.

So basically don't expect any quick fixes on this. Some kids just push back and push back to the point where you don't think you're getting anywhere. But keep plugging on and the penny should drop eventually.

As PP have said, as long as you keep tackling the problem as best you can, even if you feel like nothing is working, then you really don't need to worry about the future.

My older DD was exactly like that, she's 15 now, and absolutely lovely - clever, hard-working, generous, helpful, loves a good political debate, very good at managing people and taking charge in group situations.

In fact, I would worry more about future teenage years if people told me their toddlers are easy because it could mean that they're not setting out the boundaries at an early age.

I sometimes talk quieter to my 3 year old and pretend I can't understand her while she is shouting, tell her it's too much noise for my ears. Sometimes works, sometimes doesn't.

You have my sympathies. DD1 was like this. Including the stupidly early waking which definitely affected her behaviour. She’s now 8 and much better but still hasn’t quite accepted she’s not in charge of the world 🙄.

When it’s 5am and someone is screaming it’s very hard to be rational and implement a calm parenting strategy!!

Things that helped us:

1. Gro clock
2. Stop trying to persuade her to go back to sleep - at that time, she genuinely couldn’t. Instead we gave her a pile of books (she loved books even before she could read, thankfully) and toys to play with in bed until the sun came up on the clock.
3. Reward chart, and explaining that Mummy and Daddy will be tired and grumpy if they get woken up early
4. Getting cross if she came out of her room before sun was up and returning her rapidly

Ok so 4) wasn’t really a deliberate parenting strategy more of a knee jerk reaction... but I think it did help...

5. Early bedtime. Sounds counter intuitive but she was over tired so early bedtime and lots of help to drift off at bedtime (cuddles etc) really did help.

Good luck. This kind of child is not easy and things that work on others will not work on her!! But it gets easier as they get older. Consistency and routine is absolutely key, if she’s like my DD she will accept something much more easily if it is what happens every single time and every single day. Also as she gets older she will understand natural consequences more - “sorry, you woke us up early, so we are too tired to go to the playground. If you stay in bed tomorrow we can go to the playground tomorrow”.

Naughty step
Naughty room
Naughty cupboard
Naughty backside step
Naughty policeman’s in the phone to talk to you
Naughty duct tape and any spare wall in the house?
Roll her up in a rug and sit on her?
Play hide n seek and tell her she absolutely must hiss in the shoe box inside the suitcase inside the car boot cos daddy will NEVER EVER find her there and she will be the winner for all time?????
Absolutely totally not serious of course. Maybe earplugs, Valium, drink of any spirit , and lock yourself
In the bathroom and stay there until someone else deals with it???????

Sorry I realise I made several spelling errors but it’s hard to type after Valium rum and I’m
Currently under the stairs beneath a pile of coats....

*The answer to this is blindingly obvious. Like any repeated behaviour, she does it because experience has shown her it works. To use your own words one of you ‘eventually capitulates’. She’s not stupid, she knows what she wants and she knows how to get it - why on earth would she change her behaviour?

She is three. She is old enough to talk to. In a calm moment sit her down and tell her you and Daddy have decided that you don’t want any shouting in the house. It’s rude and disturbs other people. From now on she will never get anything she shouts for. But if she asks nicely in a polite voice you will think about what she is asking for.

And then stick to it. Always. Every time she shouts tell her quietly ‘oh what a shame, you shouted so you can’t have it’. And always make a big fuss of her when she asks quietly, say ‘Oh that was great, you asked so politely, you can certainly have X’. If it’s not a great time say ‘That was so great, you asked so politely, you can certainly have X once teeth are brushed/after lunch/whatever’.

Consistency is everything . Say what you mean and stick to it. Children need rules and boundaries to help them manage their expectations. Inconsistency is unfair and unkind to them as well as making a rod for your own back.*

This ^

Also small children need to be tought to have empathy for others, when calm she needs to have it drummed into her, that Mummy and Daddy get tired too and need their rest, it is selfish to wake them up.
That yelling upsets the household and she must not do it.

My DS always woke at 5am, by the time he was 3 l had enough of getting up at 5 daily, so told him he was alowed to go and sit on the sofa and turn on Cbeebies ...should he do anything else or turn the TV over he would have to stay in his room until l got up at 6am.
He was so delighted he did this without fail until he started school at 5.
The key is NEVER give in, make house rules clear, make consequences clear, and never break them.
Also l had no tolerance for rude children including my own, and had no compunction about telling them sharply to behave.
The trouble is you have a long haul back op as your DD is so used to getting her own way, you will need to be braced for a loud battle to get this back, l agree it is better now at 3 than later.
Parenting is hard but you can do this.

Be consistent and dont make the behaviour rewarding. And its just a phase. Lots of lovely teens were difficult toddlers.

My son with ASD is incredibly stubborn . Lots of ASD techniques work with all children (my other child always responds better) so im not suggesting your child has ASD but it migh be worth looking into 'now and next' in conjunction with the gro clock.