to think wanting to overthrow capitalism is not an extreme political stance

[chomalungma]

New school guidance issued last week for education.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Issued last Thursday, the guidance reads: “Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.

Yet the Government think it is.

Are people who think that there alternatives to capitalism taking an extreme political stance?

It sounds like good guidance to me. Over throwing capitalism is a pretty extreme stance. Parents can teach children from Das Kapital if they want to but keep it out of school.

The groups not wanting freedom of religion is an interesting one as many leading religions want everyone to follow their one true faith. Arguably that one might make the Bible and Koran banned in schools.

@Brioches1 I was at school in Germany in 1991 when quite a few kids came over from the former GDR. They were so scathing about their system, it's silly to keep pretending that communism removes the greed from people who amass power. They were saying you always knew which families were party seniors. Because they had Nutella... The right system is one that allows freedom, and encourages personal responsibility and altruism. History suggests communism is not it. I think Germany's political system comes pretty close.

Also, we were all encouraged to read Das Kapital from cover to cover, and discussed it at great length.

@SerenityNowwwww

At the last general election ds’s school did their own vote for the kids. Some of them voted for Farges party (god I can’t even remember the name of it!).

There was certainly some raised eyebrows when the results came in (I assumed it was a ‘joke’ votes) but that’s how our society works, we choose who we vote for and should not be cowed into agreeing with everyone else. You shouldn’t have to pretend so that you would be bullied. Why can’t people debate?

Why would it be joke votes? Maybe they thought the Brexit party was the best option.

@Southwestten

You don’t get revolution until life is mostly shit for the people doing the revolting That is true and in 1989/91 people in the Soviet Union decided they’d had enough of the regime which replaced the previous regime. Life under the Tsars May have been appalling but I don’t think life under Stalin was a piece of cake either.

@Southwestten - in other words, if capitalism ever is overthrown anywhere, it’s likely to be because it has failed to live up to its promises, and life for the people overthrowing it is already shit... Countries with tiny numbers of hugely powerful, corrupt and bloated elites and massive peasant populations seem to attract revolutions. Capitalism seems to be as poor as any other system at preventing bloated elites from taking the piss.

Capitalism seems to be as poor as any other system at preventing bloated elites from taking the piss

There are no bloated elites in communist countries? I don’t suppose Maduro and his cronies are starving like the rest of Venezuela.
Ceausescu lived in luxury but most Romanians’ lives were far from luxurious.
What do you think is the answer?

Capitalism is the best system the planet has found for people to live in peace, prosperity and harmony. Those who want to over throw it can certainly express their views but propaganda in schools rather than history lessons which include Karl Marx, Hitler and all the rest is not needed.

At the last general election ds’s school did their own vote for the kids. Some of them voted for Farges party (god I can’t even remember the name of it!)

Serenitynow - which party won the election at your son’s school?

Labour by a small majority. This was of course before they went for woke...

@Southwestten - which bit of “as poor as” do you not comprehend? Bloated elites have existed in every system so far, capitalism most definitely included. People in democratic countries could stop pretending that they are living in purely capitalist countries for a start, so that we stop the pathetic arguments about it being a choice between capitalism and socialism or capitalism and communism. We’re human beings, not systems or fixed ideologies.

It’s not as if state education, the NHS, or the welfare state are capitalist concepts, yet they exist in a supposedly capitalist society. The right wing should stop pretending that it’s capitalism versus Stalin’s USSR.

Owen Jones and his mates wouldn't last 5 minutes in a truly 'anti-capitalist' society.

Capitalism is the best system the planet has found for people to live in peace, prosperity and harmony

The problem with capitalism is you eventually run out of other people’s planet.

@CremeEggThief

YANBU.

I am always perplexed and genuinely puzzled by why some people seem frightened of Marxism or even Socialism. I don't understand it.

Your are perplexed? Really? Can you name one nation state in history where socialism has been successful, even one? Where some animals were not more equal than others, even through socialist bleat about inequality like they are egalitarian. And no Scandinavian countries are not socialist, they are most definitely capitalist.

@KnightsofColumbusThatHurt

Owen Jones and his mates wouldn't last 5 minutes in a truly 'anti-capitalist' society.

That’s the problem with all socialists, they only want socialism for others, someone else should pay, never them. Socialism is for students politicians, as soon as people grow up, they move on.

In itself, I think that it depends on the person who is saying it, because they can mean quite different things by capitalism, and also in terms of "overthrowing it".

I think context is important here though, in that it's a school. It's very much a political opinion, and while I would have no issue at all with students learning about all kinds of political and economic views, I don't think it is up to schools to be promoting and particular economic, political, or social viewpoint.

In some cases that might be a fine line. If a class doing a unit on Marxism, could they have a Marxist in to speak about it? What about an academic who is an expert on the topic as wall as being a marxist? I think the answer is yes but it would need to be done in an appropriate way.

My sense is that people used to have a good intuitive grasp of that line, but now many people don't really understand the difference between talking about something as a real, and potentially compelling, idea, and indoctrination or activism.

Socialism is for students politicians, as soon as people grow up, they move on.

Bullshit.

@Xenia

Capitalism is the best system the planet has found for people to live in peace, prosperity and harmony. Those who want to over throw it can certainly express their views but propaganda in schools rather than history lessons which include Karl Marx, Hitler and all the rest is not needed.

I don't know. It rather looks like capitalism is an existential threat in terms of damage to the planet, and now that the post-war consensus has broken down we are again moving on the trajectory of the pure capitalism of the late 19th century. The US is looking to be a failed state in large part because of unfettered capitalism.

The state communism of the 20th century wasn't really the opposite of capitalism either - it still operated within the same larger global economic money system where we need constant growth and small groups of people make the economic decisions that affect the masses.

Parents can teach children from Das Kapital if they want to but keep it out of school.

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need "

Radical stuff.

Nearly as radical as Jesus, where it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to Where we discuss whether it is possible for a rich man to Ed bred the kingdom of heaven.

One of the purposes of universal education is to indoctrinate the populace to support the system of government. It’s not surprising that being anti-capitalist or anti-democracy would be seen as extremist.

Yes, still waiting for an example of a 'socialist' country where it has been a success story?

@KnightsofColumbusThatHurt - what countries do you count as socialist and what countries do you count as capitalist? Has there ever been a country that is 100% socialist? Or, indeed, a country that is 100% capitalist? Are we supposed to believe that China, for example, is 100% socialist? Or that the USSR was?

Are we supposed to believe that all countries which claim to be capitalist are success stories?

There is no true socialist country.
Next time though they'll get it right 😉.

Strange how no one mentions that socialism has to bail out capitalism every 10 years or so