Catholic baptism

[MrsBmaybebaby]

Hello all,

Sorry if this is not the best place, I think it’s the closest forum I could see for my question. So... my husband and I were both raised catholic, but are both atheist now. I am pregnant with our first. My MIL is very very religious (I don’t think I can quite explain how religious) and I previously caved to a full catholic wedding to avoid aggro. I loved my wedding day but it wasn’t what I wanted, not because I have anything against religion, but because it just didn’t reflect us or our relationship in any way, given neither of us believe in God.

I know that there is going to be a massive (!!!) argument if I say that I’d rather our child wasn’t baptised. My husband would do it because he doesn’t tackle her on this at all (eg she doesn’t know he’s an atheist, and thinks he still goes to mass, though he’s actually a bigger atheist than me!). I feel very torn because part of me would rather avoid the aggro, and if I thought it would finish here, I’d probably do it for the peace. However, two things bother me about it. First, we won’t be able to name guardians for our child based on our choosing, as they will need to be catholic themselves. Secondly, I would probably prefer that they don’t go to catholic schools, but I know that would also be a massive argument in the future too! Any thoughts would be much appreciated as this has bounced about in my head for ages. I said at the time of the wedding that I would give in to make her happy, on condition that we actually made choices for our children. Now I feel a bit pressurised just to cave again.

Many thanks 😊 xxxx
PS apologies if anyone reading this is religious, I mean no offence, it’s not for me, but I’d wholeheartedly stand for your right to practice any religion you see fit.

I was Catholic now atheist. There is no way I would send my children to a Catholic school and get them baptised. Doubley if I was being forced into it. Just say no.

Stand up for yourself now and for your baby who doesn’t seem to have a say in this, and say No. Otherwise you and your children will have to endure a life of endless rituals that you don’t believe in, for this child and any future children. First confession, First communion, confirmation, catholic school etc etc and mandated weekly mass to support all of the above. I was also raised a strict Catholic and I haven’t baptised any of my children and I am completely atheist now. My mum was upset for a while but because all of the child abuse scandals were pouring out of the church at the time she couldn’t really preach to me about the church. My grandmother was a devout Catholic (daily 8am mass all her life) and would be turning in her grave that my children are “heathen” but luckily she didn’t live to see all of the scandals exposed either. Listen to Mary Mcaleese on BBC women’s hour this week - she articulated more than I could about how mad it is to make such serious vows at such a young age. Let your children make their own decisions when they have learned about religion, a range of religions. I am fascinated my eldest child’s thoughts on the subject as she studies religion at school - she simply believes nothing happens when we die and yet she manages to remain a kind and decent human being.

Hi, thanks everyone for your comments! Sorry just to clarify, I know godparents are not legal guardians, we would appoint people as legal guardians (plus a back up knowing husband!) but I was thinking more I would also want them to represent baby eg at a naming ceremony. I would rather it wasn’t different legal guardians and then godparents who are just godparents for that day. My DH is a lawyer so that should be well in hand anyhow

@Disfordarkchocolate you are so right, I made this point on many occasions at the time. Eventually I think I felt too vulnerable and caved

@nosswith I made this very point at the time. I wanted a humanist wedding. I was told (by MIL) this was not a valid choice/viewpoint to be respected as a religion would. Apparently it would have been different had I wanted a Muslim wedding, for example.

@tobedtoMNandfart I also made this point! I’m starting to think I should have cane on here beforehand! I hated the hypocrisy of saying those things in my vows and felt personally that this was more disrespectful to religion that choosing a non religious ceremony. But I was out voted on that!

@drivingmisspotty I truly believe she will secretly baptise the child regardless. I don’t even think I’d be that bothered if we also had done things our way.

I think on reflection of your responses so much of this rests with DH. I couldn’t get him to be honest with his mum before the wedding and I don’t know if I will now. Maybe it’s a massive argument one way or the other and it’s just a question of who with!!! Or with both

On the Catholic school front though-given that we live in a country (assuming UK) where there are not really any NON religious schools, does it really make a difference o an atheist whether the school is Catholic or C of E ? There will still be christian religion being taught as fact.

@x2boys ah perhaps it depends on how oversubscribed they are etc. You have to get a letter from the priest etc. My info may be a little out of date tbf.

@SageRosemary i was somewhat gobsmacked by your comment. I could enter into a vast list of reasons why I disagree, but I’ll sum it up as such. If you don’t have the compassion to see why I made a decision, against my will, to try and make my DH happy/his life easier (as he would have had a very hard time of it from his mum), then I wish you a good day and remind you of the quote if you don’t have something nice to say don’t say anything at all.

If a god does exist, I’m fairly certain She/he would have some more Compassion for my predicament and for the good place I was trying to come from.

Why are you, and more so, your husband, allowing your mother in law to have such a huge influence on some of the most important decision in your lives?

My mum and mil are Catholic and were desperate for her to be christened. Fuck that.

I was raised Catholic too and I don't believe in God who impregnated a virgin with magic.

But I was not going to send our daughter to a Catholic school. The indoctrination is bullshit and I certainly didn't want her making her communion. Dressing a child up in a wedding dress and saying they love God, is frankly, fucking weird.

And we had a nun for a teacher, who was fucking evil.

We did compromise and had a 'thanksgiving' ceremony, just so the mums weren't worried that if our daughter died, she would not be floating round in limbo 😂😂 ffs.

LockdownLump the mums have not kept up to date with Catholic teaching. There is no longer a teaching of limbo.

@TheSpottedZebra yes, and I don’t actually have a particular issue with God being taught per se. I think I could have a reasoned discussion with my children and would support them if they chose to believe or not believe. My experience of catholic schooling was of guilt from an early age eg about sins I had committed. Personally I wouldn’t be asking my children to search their minds for sins on any day of the week so would seem a bit odd to me to do that via school. I also would prefer that they receive sex education (I was shown a video that told me if I had sex outside of marriage I would die eg of hiv, aids etc).

LockdownLump That made me laugh.

All religions are just plain weird if you strip away the blind faith, they are manmade institutions to control people (and particularly women). Lots of them do good things, including the Catholic Church, but the fundamental requisite to take part in the institution is that you truly believe in it and everything it stands for. Once that faith ebbs then you are in it for the wrong reason (to please other people, to conform, to get into the right school etc). Rather than make the conversation with your MIL about what to do for your child, perhaps tell her honestly that you have lost the faith and don’t believe in any of it anymore, so it would be dishonest and disingenuous to pretend and introduce your child to the same institution. Once you make the conversation about you and your absence if faith, rather than a child who can’t speak for themselves yet, it will be harder for her to sweep your concerns aside. Time to stand up for yourself.

I was brought up catholic but I am not now, I don’t even consider myself Christian. I can’t understand why you went with a Catholic wedding and I definitely cannot understand why you would even consider baptising your children.

But if you do, as has been mentioned it has nothing to do with legal guardianship. The godparents also do not need to be catholic. DH and I are godparents to his nephew who was baptised catholic, whilst I have been through all the catholic ceremonies I am not catholic now, my husband is an atheist and has never had anything to do with Catholicism (nephew was baptised catholic as his mother is, not his father who is DH’s brother).

I actually found @SageRosemary post spot on. You did ask for "any thoughts" after all?

Baptise your child or not - it's up to you. Don't do it to please others or because the local faith school gets the best results. Taking up resources disingenuously when you don't subscribe to the beliefs isn't fair. On the Priest or others.

Fair enough conceding on your wedding - it happens when you want to keep family members happy especially your new family but when you become a parent it's time to stand up for yourself and set your stall out so to speak.

Personally I wouldn’t be asking my children to search their minds for sins on any day of the week so would seem a bit odd to me to do that via school. I also would prefer that they receive sex education (I was shown a video that told me if I had sex outside of marriage I would die eg of hiv, aids etc).

The Curriculum taught in catholic schools has moved on a bit since then by the way ......

@seadreaming2020 I think I did try that angle at some point in the run up to the wedding (eg I feel it’s more disrespectful to the religion to pretend when I could just have a humanist service). It wasn’t that successful clearly but it might be the best angle I have. Thanks for your wisdom

It is tricky if you're both atheists. I am but DH is a (vaguely) practicing Catholic so I agreed that we could get DS baptised (and because there's an outstanding catholic primary school at the end of our road...). We only have one godparent (SIL) because ours had to be practicing catholics and have a letter of support from their priest and she was the only one we could think of. My agreement was predicated on me not having anything to do with the ceremony (I held DS and refused to renounce anything) and it being a very small immediate family only thing followed by a nice lunch in a pub with fancy booze. But obviously that only really worked because DH was able to deal with all the religious side - certainly at our church you have to have multiple meetings with the priest plus attend a course prior to baptism.

@ivfbeenbusy it was more that I felt quite judged by the post. It’s nothing to do with a big white wedding (I had it in exactly the same venue which covered catholic, Protestant and humanist ceremonies) nor do I have a fear of my child being converted. I suppose my reaction was to these suppositions made about me that arent actually true. I had and have no wish to waste resources or otherwise disadvantage a catholic child/family. Perhaps this will be a good argument for MIL !

you have to have multiple meetings with the priest plus attend a course prior to baptism.

My experience of DD christening was completely different - met the priest once over a coffee and put the date in the diary and that was it. All very relaxed

@ivfbeenbusy

you have to have multiple meetings with the priest plus attend a course prior to baptism.

My experience of DD christening was completely different - met the priest once over a coffee and put the date in the diary and that was it. All very relaxed

Yeah, that's what other people have said too. I don't know why our church is so keen on having people spend hours sitting in a drafts hall making small talk...

On an interesting side note - our priest was clearly aware that I was not religious and was very kind to me about it. He saw the dynamic and I think himself wouldn’t have tackled MIL about what was clearly happening. If I was agnostic, that experience would have brought me at least closer to going back to church. Kindness and compassion such as that would appeal to me and be consistent with my values

You husband is being very weak and wet about this. I am from a very, very catholic family, and my mother is very sad that I want nothing to do with the church - but she knows my stance and somewhat respects this. My Dp is also from a catholic family and his family know this too.

You H is a grown man, he needs to stand up to his mummy about this. You set a precedent with the wedding, but if you get your child baptised sure you might as well go with the whole lot - use this time to stand up for yourselves!

I also married a Catholic atheist who kept it up for his mother’s sake. Had the full Catholic wedding. In the event we were not able to have children but if we had we’d have had the same issues as you. And my previous relationship was the same, he pretended he was going to mass for his mother’s sake. I think it must be quite common. I have no useful advice to offer other than to wish you luck.

@workhomesleeprepeat @SerenDippitty thank you both for your posts, good to hear I’m not the only one in this situation! It’s so hard because you don’t want to make someone you love’s life more difficult, and I also genuinely don’t want to upset MIL (who I think will be an old school thinker of no baptism = limbo, even though teaching has changed). But hearing from others like yourselves gives me a bit more strength to do what I feel is right for my child which I didn’t have at the time of the wedding. I always think then that the children can still decide to be religious when they are teens/adults and I’d fully support them, so it’s not forever !

It's pretty unpleasant to read streams of anti Catholic comments on this thread but pretty standard for mumsnet I guess.

OP, did you not have to go through a Marriage preparation course before your wedding in the church? It's made pretty clear then and also as you say, in your actual vows, that you promise to bring any children up in the Catholic Church. You and the godparents would promise the same thing during the baptism service so it makes a complete mockery of it if you are just going to lie.

By the way, as I understand it, baptisms by a lay person are only valid if the person being baptised is in danger of imminent death. I think any priest would strongly disagree with someone baptising a grandchild at their kitchen sink without the parents' permission.

20 odd years ago my friend could not attend our local C of E school because she had had a Catholic baptism. I'm pretty sure the rules have changed since then but baptising into one branch of religion can shut doors on others.

My experience of DD christening was completely different - met the priest once over a coffee and put the date in the diary and that was it. All very relaxed

Was that catholic though? Christenings are usually Protestant.

We did a baptism course, was quite nice actually. We’re both lapsed catholic’s, but I vary in how much I practice. School only wanted a baptism certificate - the priest did see me occasionally, but didn’t have to sign anything.
In Catholic school, one of my sons did his communion etc, but the other flat refused. He said he didn’t believe in it, it wasn’t for him, and that was the end of that. He had to respectfully take part in RE lessons and attend school mass, but on a the same footing, school respected his viewpoint. Ironically, he’s actually really good at RE and on target for it to be one of his best GCSEs.
I always wanted them to have a faith to turn to if they felt they needed it, and that is what they have.

If you think you might be swayed by the mums I’d do a bit of research about what it’s like now because IME it’s relaxed a lot since we were at school.
Also find out the schools situation. You’ll kick yourself if the RC school turns out to be the best option for DC and you’ve ruled it out.