Is this punishment appropriate- SO CROSS

[binkyblinky]

Please help me with an appropriate punishment for my son. I am so, so cross with him.

Yesterday he urinated off the top of his
high bed onto his brothers’ toys and magazines below.

Back story...

My elder two boys share a room. B is 9 and has ADHD. C is 10 and is Autistic. They used to have their own rooms but we had to move them in together as husband needed a home office. We are moving to a new house in about 4 weeks and they will have their own rooms again.

Generally they get on well despite their differences and disabilities. B has medication for his ADHD that wears off early evening. I do have top ups for him but I don’t like to give them every day as they give him a tic. When off his medication, he is obstinate, wild, and completely out of control. When on his medication he is able to concentrate and is an absolute darling.

Last night whilst putting the toddler to bed, I heard a commotion. In their room, a disagreement. My husband ran upstairs and started shouting at B. I went to see what had happened and there was liquid on the carpet. B was saying that it was spit. I put my fingers in it and smelt it, and it was clearly wee. I asked him to tell me the truth and he admitted it was wee.

Infact, he was still up on his bed and had no pants on.

Apparently, C had knocked B’s head on the side of his bed. B not happy about this. (They have been told many a time if there is an argument they MUST come to
tell us.) C insists it was an accident, I am inclined to believe him, his autism means he finds the whole concept of lying Completely alien. instead of calling for mum of dad, B climbed up into his bed and urinated onto the floor. The wee went over a graphic novel and some of C’s dinosaur toys.

I’m absolutely livid and so upset with B. His defence is that C knocked his head. I said he should have come to me if he had been hurt, and weeing on your brother’s toys is disgusting.

I did however manage to remain calm, and sent him to bed.

He needs to be punished. I didn’t smack him but have in the past. I haven’t smacked for years and years and I don’t believe this is something you should do to children. (Please don’t lecture me on this)

I have taken his iPad and PlayStation away, and he will be going to bed at 7pm the same as his 2 year old brother for the next week. He will not be allowed any treats and is helping me with ALL the housework.

Is this enough? I’m so so cross at him, but I also feel bad that perhaps he wouldn’t have done it if I’d have given him his medication. This is still not an excuse for the disgusting thing he did.

I would love your opinions. Please be gentle with me!

"But climbing up on your bed to urinate on toys below is not an appropriate retaliation!"

Oh I totally agree. He must have been feeling very angry at that point. I'd be wondering why. C may have bumped his head by accident, but did he feel it was on purpose hence his reaction? Maybe something was happening before that where B felt C was winding him up in some way? And it just escalated from there?

@cdtaylornats - well, plenty of us do neither of those 2 options.

i prefer the revised punishment - i didn't notice, is he replacing the graphic novel and doing the clean up (with help from you?)

However, i always think using bedtime as punishment is wrong. Your bed is the only real refuge from everything you have as a child sharing a room, they shouldn't be seeing it as a punishment.

Cdtaylors. Both of those are wrong....

@WhatWouldYouDoWhatWouldJesusDo our bedroom is tiny. Infact it's smaller that the room where are this drama took place. Not an option. We've measured and tried everything. 4 weeks on Monday we move house.

I’m sorry but this made me laugh. I know I shouldn’t but my niece and nephew have ADHD and my niece is also autistic. My nephew would pee on his sisters stuff in revenge. He can be such a shit sometimes (we all love him!!). She can’t lie either. Their rows often end in violence. Immediate punishments work best for ADHD kids. I’d have made him clean the pee and taken his electronics for the night (then gone and had a glass of wine and a snigger in the corner!)

My sister rarely does evening top ups for the same reasons. F won’t eat enough.

Your son did something pretty awful but no one died and he was off his meds so punish but I think your original punishment was a bit OTT and over too long a time!

@Brefugee turns out the comic was his, just on his brothers toy box. So it's gone in the recycling (wasn't that wet)

I think that the punishment is a bit harsh. I would, however, have made him clear it all up, replace the book and wash all the toys.

Glad I never had kids.

I don't know a huge amount about ADHD so please forgive my ignorance, but if you think this behaviour is because of his ADHD, and you haven't given him medication that could have helped with it, you're not being fair to him. Particularly as his routine is knocked out due to sharing a room, meaning he doesn't even have his own personal space.

It's so difficult, and I understand why it had to be done as your husband needs his home office in such a weird working situation like this year has been!

If I were you I'd talk to your son's doctor about your concerns with his medication and see what they suggest. It might be that there's something else, or he can suggest a change in dose or something.

Sorry if any of this is unhelpful, as I say I don't understand it, just thought I'd post anyhow as it might be useful to have outsider views. I know how insular your vision can get when you're in the situation day in day out!!

@Jellycatspyjamas, in the evenings once the toddler / baby goes to bed, is when the boys spend time with me and dad. We have a tiny house at the moment and the routine after school is generally play in their room.
They love this time, and we watch films and have a takeaway at the weekend.

If that’s the only time he spends with you all there’s no way I’d remove that as a punishment - if anything he needs time with you all the more so he knows he’s still acceptable, while his behaviour isn’t. You’re not talking about a 10 minute time out to calm down or think about his behaviour.

His behaviour was awful, but he was provoked and didn’t have medication to help his impulse control - and your punishment for that is to exclude him from family time together. I think that’s too harsh and will undermine his relationship with you.

@LindaEllen I don't understand it and I live with it daily! So don't apologise xx

B has been on his meds for 4 years. It has definitely affected his growth and we have to juggle his behaviour and appetite with his meds. So, when he comes off his meds, we have to get him to eat as much as possible. He has just started year 5 but is the same size as year 3/4. He's tiny, bless him. But if we took the meds away, he would be too uncontrollable for school. I have the daily guilt of seeing him so small and having to sacrifice that for his education which is so important x

@petingo Thankyou, that's an extremely helpful comment. Exactly why are you on a forum for mums if you've decided never to have kids?

Too much. And it needs to be instantaneous or naturally relating to the consequence of his actions. E.g have him clean the room from top to bottom.

taking away his electronics for a week will just make him resent you, it’s not closely related to the crine and by day 7 it will feel as though it happened ages ago in his eyes, and that you ate punishing him because you don’t like him.

Punishments should always be immediate, and linked to the offense, especially in young children.

@Jellycatspyjamas family time is back on. And he's going to be earning his devices back. At the moment we are having a cuddle on the sofa, C is playing in the bedroom with his dinosaurs, hubby is cooking burgers for lunch, and toddler is busy trying to self combust / run around so fast he sets fire to something!

@Ridiculosity unfortunately the time it happened I wasn't able to do an immediate 'sanction' - I had to remove the toy box.
I know it's not connected but B values his screens so much, so it seems the most logical thing to us

Also, I think you need to post in the Special Needs section rather than AIBU.

The people berating you and being unhelpful will likely have no experience of living with a children with Autism or ADHD.

AIBU seems to be for posters keen to vent their frustrations and offers limited support, in the main.

The punishment send overly harsh. They should both get one thing they enjoy taken away for a day. Also why is having a tic on meds such a big thing for you if it helps his issues. Better that than chaos without it, for everyone. It's inflicting things on him & your family that you can avoid.

@binkyblinky one kid I nannied (from nice normal family despite this incident) decided to do the same in the gardeners shoes, he was 7/8 NT his twin was the one who had more issues with impulse control rather than him and while I was mid telling off and got to the 'what on earth made you think that was ok' part his response in a very serious voice was 'I thought it would be funny' which made me crack up laughing despite the grossness.
Just so you don't feel like it's only your kid.

@CSIblonde when I described the tic, the doc said that due to this, top ups should not be given daily. There's such a fine line between the drug levels /risks etc etc

Glad you've backed off the early nights ... that will punish you more than him because it's likely he won't be able to sleep that early and/or will pop up even earlier in the mornings to annoy everyone.

ADHD kids ime don't sleep as much as many other children. That will end up as torture for you.

turns out the comic was his, just on his brothers toy box. So it's gone in the recycling (wasn't that wet)

oh dear! hope the day gets better!

Once you have sorted out reasonable consequences, perhaps consider is this behaviour out of character for him?

He chose to climb onto the bed and urinate on his brother's things rather than something less gross but more immediate, like hitting back or screaming in his face.

He has had a lot of changes recently (moving bedroom, soon to be moving house, return to school, new Covid school rules, presumably new school year group- will there also be a school change when you move?)

Is he actually telling you through his behaviour that he is unhappy at having all these changes? Does he really understand why the bedrooms needed changing and why it was his space taken away, why you have decided to move house, that none of the other changes are within your control as parents and how we have to learn to live with them.

@ithinkiveseenthisfilmbefore both boys have melatonin to sleep xx

@binkyblinky no matter about missing the chance for instant consequences this time, next time you can try this approach.

By taking his electronics ‘because he loves them’ you are choosing the punishment because you know it will hurt him. You are deliberately making him sad - and he will know this.

He is not an adult who knows better and “needs to pay” for his crimes. He is a child who does not know better, and needs to be taught. Punishment that serves no purpose other than to inflict pain is just revenge.

If you continue to choose punishments for the purpose of hurting your son you will seriously increase the chances that he will grow up to resent you. I am a child psychologist by the way, I do know what I’m talking about.

He needs to feel the natural consequences of what he has done and any pain associated with putting it right (the boredom of cleaning, the embarrassment of apology, the discomfort of hearing you explain that is is an unhygeinic and unkind thing to do). This will teach him that urinating on the floor is not a good thing to do.

Consequences chosen with the deliberately aim of upsetting him will teach him that you are willing to hurt him and that his pain is acceptable, even at times desirable to you.

He has ADHD. He likely has a tough time ahead, due to his extra needs. You need to be able to trust each other. Controllingg punishments (and cctv cameras) are no foundation for a trusting relationship.

I am sorry for being very blunt but I am trying to help you and your son avoid more difficult times in his teenage years. You are a good parent and you love him, have a chat with camhs and ask them about it, I daresay you will find they say something similar to me.