Is this punishment appropriate- SO CROSS

[binkyblinky]

Please help me with an appropriate punishment for my son. I am so, so cross with him.

Yesterday he urinated off the top of his
high bed onto his brothers’ toys and magazines below.

Back story...

My elder two boys share a room. B is 9 and has ADHD. C is 10 and is Autistic. They used to have their own rooms but we had to move them in together as husband needed a home office. We are moving to a new house in about 4 weeks and they will have their own rooms again.

Generally they get on well despite their differences and disabilities. B has medication for his ADHD that wears off early evening. I do have top ups for him but I don’t like to give them every day as they give him a tic. When off his medication, he is obstinate, wild, and completely out of control. When on his medication he is able to concentrate and is an absolute darling.

Last night whilst putting the toddler to bed, I heard a commotion. In their room, a disagreement. My husband ran upstairs and started shouting at B. I went to see what had happened and there was liquid on the carpet. B was saying that it was spit. I put my fingers in it and smelt it, and it was clearly wee. I asked him to tell me the truth and he admitted it was wee.

Infact, he was still up on his bed and had no pants on.

Apparently, C had knocked B’s head on the side of his bed. B not happy about this. (They have been told many a time if there is an argument they MUST come to
tell us.) C insists it was an accident, I am inclined to believe him, his autism means he finds the whole concept of lying Completely alien. instead of calling for mum of dad, B climbed up into his bed and urinated onto the floor. The wee went over a graphic novel and some of C’s dinosaur toys.

I’m absolutely livid and so upset with B. His defence is that C knocked his head. I said he should have come to me if he had been hurt, and weeing on your brother’s toys is disgusting.

I did however manage to remain calm, and sent him to bed.

He needs to be punished. I didn’t smack him but have in the past. I haven’t smacked for years and years and I don’t believe this is something you should do to children. (Please don’t lecture me on this)

I have taken his iPad and PlayStation away, and he will be going to bed at 7pm the same as his 2 year old brother for the next week. He will not be allowed any treats and is helping me with ALL the housework.

Is this enough? I’m so so cross at him, but I also feel bad that perhaps he wouldn’t have done it if I’d have given him his medication. This is still not an excuse for the disgusting thing he did.

I would love your opinions. Please be gentle with me!

You’re right to be so cross it’s not a pleasant thing to do, if I was in this situation this is what I would do, tell the child who hit the other child to apologise, explain again we use our words if someone has hurt them. Tell the child who urinated that he needs to clean the floor and his brother’s toys because if we spoil other peoples toys, this is what we do, it’s a natural consequence.

That’s all I would do!

My DS has ADHD. He needs to clean it up. We made DS do this when he spat on things in his room.

His medication wore off and he did something impulsive.

Teach him it's naughty by making him clean it.

That's enough punishment.

@Nottherealslimshady I'm not saying my ASD son can't lie because he is autistic, he is, by his very nature a truthful person. He is always honest, it is the way he is.

B is constantly telling fibs and it takes us a while to work out what has happened a lot of the time. But the flip side of this, is that he is a genuinely kind, caring and lovely little boy.

It is so, so hard.

Can't wait to move to our beautiful new big house. It's going to be amazing!

Far too much. He’s in a situation where he’s likely to lose control and you know his medication wears off at bedtime so he’s set up to fail. Both punishments are too extreme and too complicated it’s no connection to the original event. Making him go to bed at the same time as his brother will probably just make him resent his brother, particularly as it was his brother who banged his head first but doesn’t seem to have had any sanction. Of course you can change the punishment. People get things wrong and showing your children that it’s ok to admit you were wrong is showing them how to be a good person. Explain that you were really cross when you came up with the first punishment but now that you’ve thought about it you will be doing XYZ.

What does not having technology have to do with peeing on the floor? I can guarantee that when he’s using his console etc he is not thinking “I’ve been really good and behaved and that is why I’m allowed to play this game” so why on Earth is not having the console going to help his behaviour in the future. He needs to be given better sways to deal with situations rather than being arbitrarily punished and getting pis*ed off with the world.

Move them into separate rooms again. Your dh can work from one of their bedrooms in the day time or the dining room.

Urinating on his brother’s toys is disgusting and really unacceptable- however his brother hurting him is also not acceptable. I don’t think it’s good to punish one and not the other. It might lead to one son feeling resentful.

You've taken away his safe space and you're refusing to give him the medication- and somehow it's his fault? You are being incredibly unreasonable. Is there any way you can give him back his room until you move again? If this is a new issue then it's clear that he needs it to recharge and decompress.

Is there a way one of them can sleep in the home office? Thinking that it might not be used much in the evening.

Far too much punishment for a child with altered impulse control. I have a son with asd / adhd and I find that it's more effective to talk about it calmly at a time when he's receptive rather than immediate reactive punishment which adds to his stress at a time when he's overloaded and his behaviour is a reflection of that.

I also know that feeling of "head exploding can't believe you did that" and I understand you wanting to punish him but my child certainly doesn't learn when he's already distressed, so I have to pick my moments to teach. I do have, written up in small letters inside a cupboard, a reminder that discipline originally meant to teach rather than to punish. It helps me to remember my long term goals rather than making me feel better when I'm angry...

We also talk about changing punishments or consequences if we need to and I explain that sometimes I get it wrong because I was angry and not thinking clearly, which my son understands because that's often what causes the problem in the first place iyswim... I don't see it as backing down, just acknowledging that I too get things wrong and make bad decisions when I'm cross...

You need to stop blaming yourself for every single thing your boys do, and, if you subtract the actions from all the emotion and your situation, then weeing all over your brother's toys and book is actually a very effective way of showing him just how pissed off you are. Naughty etc etc yes, and I feel for you as you are under so much stress right now but one day you might see the funny side.

(Sorry if this comes across as insensitive.)

Way too harsh! I would make him clean up the mess, wash his brother's dinosaurs and replace the graphic novel from pocket money. I'd also make sure C had apologised for bumping his head even if it was an accident.

Then I would have a think about whether the need for a home office was greater than there need for seperate rooms for the next 4 weeks. Could your partner work in your bedroom instead?

Your punishments are way too much. Why must you do anything? Just tell him off, tell him it's disappointing behaviour and tell him that this is his first and final warning - it happens again and you will do X Y and Z.

And then just move on. On top of his disabilities he's a typical young boy. You don't need all this removal of possessions line of punishment. Because all you do by doing that is back then into a corner with nothing to lose

Just give an old fashioned bollocking and forget about it. I do agree he should have assisted with cleaning though

So you're choosing not to give him as much medication as he needs

Sometimes side effects of medication have to be balanced against its effectiveness.

OP doesn't want her child to be over-medicated or catatonic/twitching excessively/anorexic due to lack of appetite.

She's doing her best - can you not imagine how exhausting it must be to have two boisterous boys with these difficulties?

It’s the behaviour that’s the issue, not the size of your house.

I know you’re looking forward to moving to your lovely new house and that’s stressful enough for anyone, but you still need to focus on how to help your son curb his impulses. Is there a squishy toy he can grab and squeeze until his overwhelming feelings of creating harm, reduces?

Also, longer term try to find immediate consequences for poor behaviour rather than long drawn out punishments that aren't going to help reduce the frequency of the outbursts.

Good luck.

The punishments over several days seem excessive.
Punishments should reflect the 'Crime'.. Helping to clean up the pee and replacing damaged items and confiscation of devices for one day.

Sustained punishments just foster resentment.

Peeing as an ''Act of anger'' is not on though. Good luck with move.

What I would do is very calmly, with no anger (but will of steel) say, 'Oh dear. OK, collect up the toys. Wash them. Disinfect them. Strip your brother's bed. Put clean covers on your own duvet and pillow for him. Wash the duvet and pillow. If you need to go to a laundrette, that comes out of his pocket money.
Just with no anger at all make him do every single job that has arisen from his actions. Very calmly, as though it was a project you are working on together. Show him but don't do it for him. praise him when he gets it right. When it's all done ask him to give his brother a quick apology and then have cake.
Ime, this stops them causing chaos ever again.They don't get to feel sorry for themselves or blow up with a tantrum because you don't show anger, just unshakable rationale: This is how a person who makes this sort of mess clears up this sort of mess. People who make messes clear up messes and the best way to clear up this one is by... (focus your energy on the practical problem solving aspect.)

Honestly, it knocks the power out of them because they expect a row and don't get one. But they don't expect to have full responsibility for their actions. And you can say with genuine sympathy: 'it's smelly isn't it? Not really enjoying it? Yeah, that's why it's probably best not to do it again because the cleaning up is not fun. You can play footie as soon as you're done.' Etc.

I don't know why you're getting grief about not giving him topups of his medication. (Well I do, it's Mumsnet, people will criticise everything you do). Is it methylphenidate he's on? It kills their appetite and makes it hard for them to sleep. And IME if they have too much, it can tip them over into being overstimulated and then their behaviour can deteriorate anyway (happened to DD when we were doing the initial tryout of what dose to give her). It's always a judgement call. And anyway your boy needs to learn ways of dealing with his feelings that are less destructive than weeing on his brother's stuff! I thought your punishments were appropriate to be honest, particularly if this is an escalation of what he's normally like - you want him to get the message that that is absolutely not on.

Hubby's office isn't just for a laptop. He is an automation engineer so has thousands of pounds of robotic thingys that he needs next to him when he works.
It needs to be safe and away from the children sadly.
He was sharing his office with the baby at one point but this became difficult, so we put the elder two in the big room, where they actually have more space! They just have to share it.
Only temporary

Am glad you have reconsidered. The punishments say more about how hard it is for you to have to carry so much responsibility. It is hard to have children who take extra head space when the easiest of siblings take up plenty.

When faced with having to decide whether it was the child or the condition - be cautious and presume the condition. Take the drama out of it. Later you will only regret the shouting g or punishments or misery. It won’t matter. It’s the initial consequence - clean it up and make it better - and the long term relationship that matters. Focus on keeping them happy together and you relaxed with both. It is hard when you carry all the planning and worrying but it really is all that matters. Punishments don’t need to drag on, focus on building all of your bonds. Easier in the new house with more space. I would wee on my actual brother if I had to share with him too.

the side effects of ADHD medication can be quite severe -they can slow growth & lead to be underweight because dc loose appetite. It is often recommended to give gaps also because it stops dependence on them & the build up of resistance . It has been suggested that dc are given therapy geared to ADHD but the chances of getting therapy or supported advice to parents on specific behaviour management ... ASD do tell fibs but they are usually pretty transparent

@SilenceOfThePrams

You’re punishing him for an impulsive decision, which is punishing him for having ADHD. Please don’t. Dragging it on for a week, when his actions were the work of seconds is way too much, his ADHD brain can’t link that to a few seconds of impulsivity. You’re punishing him for the fact that your husband needs a home office, that’s not his fault either.

I can understand why you don’t want to top up his meds, but in that case, the evenings need tweaking him again. Perhaps a more logical punishment would be that since the boys clearly can’t cope being together for that bedtime hour, they need to be kept apart during that time. Either one of them stays down with you, one or both go for an evening walk with whichever parent isn’t toddler-wrangling, or the boys take it in turns to be in their bedroom or to take some toys from their room through to yours or to the kitchen. Or one of them has a bath.

What do you hope to get from the punishment? You can’t punish ADHD out of him, and I’m sure you know that. Yes, what he did was gross, and I agree, finding a way to replace his brother’s book and washing the toys helping to scrub the carpet would have been appropriate. But early bedtimes isn’t going to help - unless you want him to wake at silly o’clock in the morning and rampage then with even less medication in his system? And a week without electronics is going to be torture for all of you, if he usually uses them to burn off some of his mental energy.

You know your boys and I don’t, of course, but personally I’d be sitting down with them this morning and apologising for the fact they are still having to share when you know it isn’t easy for them. I’d thank them for trying so hard most of the time. I’d ask the wee-er what he thinks he might be able to do to make it right, and I’d ask the head pusher to apologise, even though it was an accident. And then I’d move on. Enjoy the Saturday. And count down to moving day.

This. Absolutely this. By your logic you should be punishing yourselves for not giving your dcs the space they need and a child with ADHD a full amount of meds. Your punishments are really draconian. Additionally you’re punishing your one child for having a condition, he has limited control over whilst letting the other child off Scott free. Neither have full control over their actions. Why would you single one child out and not the other??

@binkyblinky why was it “difficult” for him to share with the baby? It’s not appropriate to make your children with disabilities give up their own rooms when one is available. Your dh needs to work something out. Why can’t the toddler share with you? Your priority must be separate rooms for your older dc.

Right First off, you moved them in together as your husband needed a home office? A full bedroom? Do you not have a dining table? When I was working from home I sat on the sofa rather than taking my children's personal space away. I went in my room for meetings and phone calls. Very selfish on yours and your husbands part.

Second, you aren't medicating him through your own choice and then wondering why he's behaving like he did. Paediatricians medicate for a reason.

Thirdly, you weren't there you didn't see what happened but are choosing to believe your other child and then not punishing him too.

No wonder he acted out. I think you need to reassess the whole situation as it does not seem fair on him whatsoever and you seem like you and your husband are doing things for your own convenience and not your children's.

In regards to punishment, cleaning it up and replacing the book with pocket money would have been sufficient. As a parent of children with additional needs you should know the punishment needs to be immediate or it means nothing.

Reasons why we moved them in together;

Originally hubby's office was in with the baby. The equipment and everything fitted nicely, we had a room divider with the baby the other side.

Then, we had a new neighbour who is a single mum who regularly has very loud parties and drinks / takes drugs. Evening and weekends she is off her face. Her flat borders the first floor of our house. The noise she created was disturbing the baby and B. We decided to move the boys into this room, using their bookcases and wardrobes against the noisy wall, to block out the noise from the neighbour.

They both know it's a temporary measure. They have been amazing and there have been little to no problems.

Hubby's office is now in B's old room, it doesn't get affected by her noise during the day.

The boys don't hear her because of how we placed the furniture.

Again, another reason why we are moving.