Is this punishment appropriate- SO CROSS

[binkyblinky]

Please help me with an appropriate punishment for my son. I am so, so cross with him.

Yesterday he urinated off the top of his
high bed onto his brothers’ toys and magazines below.

Back story...

My elder two boys share a room. B is 9 and has ADHD. C is 10 and is Autistic. They used to have their own rooms but we had to move them in together as husband needed a home office. We are moving to a new house in about 4 weeks and they will have their own rooms again.

Generally they get on well despite their differences and disabilities. B has medication for his ADHD that wears off early evening. I do have top ups for him but I don’t like to give them every day as they give him a tic. When off his medication, he is obstinate, wild, and completely out of control. When on his medication he is able to concentrate and is an absolute darling.

Last night whilst putting the toddler to bed, I heard a commotion. In their room, a disagreement. My husband ran upstairs and started shouting at B. I went to see what had happened and there was liquid on the carpet. B was saying that it was spit. I put my fingers in it and smelt it, and it was clearly wee. I asked him to tell me the truth and he admitted it was wee.

Infact, he was still up on his bed and had no pants on.

Apparently, C had knocked B’s head on the side of his bed. B not happy about this. (They have been told many a time if there is an argument they MUST come to
tell us.) C insists it was an accident, I am inclined to believe him, his autism means he finds the whole concept of lying Completely alien. instead of calling for mum of dad, B climbed up into his bed and urinated onto the floor. The wee went over a graphic novel and some of C’s dinosaur toys.

I’m absolutely livid and so upset with B. His defence is that C knocked his head. I said he should have come to me if he had been hurt, and weeing on your brother’s toys is disgusting.

I did however manage to remain calm, and sent him to bed.

He needs to be punished. I didn’t smack him but have in the past. I haven’t smacked for years and years and I don’t believe this is something you should do to children. (Please don’t lecture me on this)

I have taken his iPad and PlayStation away, and he will be going to bed at 7pm the same as his 2 year old brother for the next week. He will not be allowed any treats and is helping me with ALL the housework.

Is this enough? I’m so so cross at him, but I also feel bad that perhaps he wouldn’t have done it if I’d have given him his medication. This is still not an excuse for the disgusting thing he did.

I would love your opinions. Please be gentle with me!

Make him wash all his brothers toys. And the carpet. And wash the bathroom toilets every day for two weeks. Because that’s where you pee.

@supersonicginandtonic we are doing the best we can. We have a table in our lounge, but this would be unsafe for hubby to work at as it's where we spend the majority of our day. He needs all his electrical equipment with him too.

Can the baby come in your room a night?

I completley agree. The poor boy was hurt, didnt have a safe space anymore and didnt know what to do. Of course we see it as gross (it is!!!) But its a boy communicating that hes not coping.

Please dont take away his family nights with you. That just reinforces the fedling he's somehow bad. Its not fair for him to grow up thinking he's bad for ha ing a disability

I think you need to find another outlet for dealing with your shock and frustration, rather than punishing. Punishing just puts all that anger onto the child.

@binkyblinky Put the toddler in with you both for the time being. Your husband can wear noise cancelling headphones when working if it's that much of an issue. If it's too noisy for him to be at home why doesn't he ask to go back into the office?

If it's as bad as you say it is contact the council regarding the noise.

@supersonicginandtonic I am really upset that you called us selfish. Everything we do is for those boys, and I have explained in depth about why we were forced to move all the rooms around.
It has been a horrible few months and we have done the best we can.

Camhs have said that I am not to top up his medication every day. This is because of the affect it has on his appetite and that it causes tics.

We have to juggle so much in our tiny house, and we have sold and buying another because of it!

Our new house is so much bigger.

We have all had a chat and family nights are reinstated. He will be able to earn his PS4 and iPad back with good behaviour.
I will be speaking to Camhs about medication next week.

As I said before, WFH is not just a laptop but robots and computers to connect into allsorts or complicated equipment that I won't ever understand- I struggle to work my washing machine!

Stop justifying your living arrangements OP - this is nobody else's business and no explanations you make will shut someone up once they've decided to be judgemental.

I'm sure you're doing the best you can. You know the situation and your kids best.

What is the purpose of the punishment (I get that you have revised it)? If your son wouldn't do this when medicated, then really he is being punished for the failure of his executive functions. He will not learn anything. I don't understand the point of the planned prolonged punishment. The equivalent would be days of punishment to your son with autism for blurting out something rude.

I would suggest:
A) natural consequences- clean up, clean items/replace from pocket money.
B) more bedtime supervision
C) fairness - your other son sounds like a "golden child". Was he made to apologise for hurting his brother?

I hope things settle down. It must be tough at times like this.

Toddler in with us also isn't an option, our bedroom is in the loft and there literally isn't the space for even a small travel cot sadly

"C insists it was an accident, I am inclined to believe him, his autism means he finds the whole concept of lying Completely alien"

I have an autistic child and work with autistic kids. IME they can lie. Obviously OP you know your own son to be able to weigh up whether he was being truthful or not, but it shouldn't be that 'autism = telling the truth'.

Even if you accept they are telling the truth, their truth may not be what actually happened as they are telling it from their perspective.

As for the punishment, I'd make him clean it up and replace it. I completely understand not wanting to medicate at this time due to appetite suppressing and tics, so I would ensure they are supervised at bedtime (by husband?).

Must be quite intense for you at the moment as so many changes have happened or going to happen. Make sure you look after yourself too OP!

Oh yes, of course C was made to apologise for hurting B, and he is no means a golden child. We have issues with him too x

@ShawshanksRedemption yes I agree re them telling from their point of view. We've been through it all again this morning. And it does seem an accident. But climbing up on your bed to urinate on toys below is not an appropriate retaliation!

Firstly, for you. You have got a LOT on your plate, especially if you're also about to move house.

I just wanted to make a small point about the incapable of lying thing.

My son has ASD, and when he hurts his sister, he always says it's an accident.

What he means, though, is that he didn't mean it to hurt her as much as it did. It's very common with autism to be unable to accept the consequences of your actions, if they were not the exact consequences you intended.

I would let his brother share some of the responsibility for the incident.

Well done binky. It is really really really hard living with kids with adhd/autism sometimes can't it. Its like 100 extra things to deal with and think about on top of parenting.

I think its okay to say to apologise to kids sometimes and say we fly off the handle sometimes just like idea. And model putting it right.

Working together to stop something happening again, and giving the kids skills to cope, and providingnan environment they can succeed in, is much better than punishing.

And be easy on yourself. It has been a stressful 6 months for everyone!!! It sounds like its become v stressful for your boys too, and a housemove too!!! Make sure you go gentle on you, and it sounds like it will be a lot easier once you've moved.

You can even try framing the situation so he understands his behaviour and that you will help. "It must be ever so difficult for you sharing a space when you're used to ha ing your own room to calm down in. This isnt an okay way to handle it. We could try xyz next time? Or what do you think would help?" Also that you know its difficult but it wont be forever.

It does help them to know you're on their side.

B has a right to be annoyed by being bumped even if it was an accident. Adults get annoyed when people aren't paying attention and bump into them and is it possible that B could have been mucking about and bumped into C accidentally but B would have seen it as avoidable if he'd been paying attention?
What would C have done if it had happened at school? (A likely scenario imo) That is perhaps how he should've dealt with it

X-posted with Shawshank

Just like idea? Just like they do.

It's not selfish to have them share a room, you'd obviously considered the other options and no judgement here. I do think you should consider his top ups though, my older brother has ADHD and it was hell living with him. Not fully his fault obviously, but if there is additional meds he can safely take that can help, I would

He shouldn't be punished.

You're depriving him of his own space AND his prescribed medication.

You need to start giving him his meds and ask for a meds review. It might be worth trying again.

Husband needs to set up his home office in your bedroom and give him his own space back.

Sounds like you're doing the right things in difficult circumstances. I get what you mean about not wanting to top up all the time but it's good you have a review of that next week. Could the top up be at a lower dose, just as a temporary measure?

When do you next have a medication review? My son was on metaphettamine and had no appetite and bounce back when it wore off.

He is now on atomoxetine and it is brilliant, he has been on it for 5 years now with no side effects, it is 24 hour and not catastrophic if you miss a dose (still noticeable). It has made his life (and out) considerably better.

It is very hard to punish for his lack of impulse control but you do need to show that is not acceptable. I think he probably picked up your disgust last night and is aware that it is not ok. Make sure you are as fair as possible and give everyone a bit of slack, if you are moving it will all be a bit tops turvey at the moment.

Ok, so what I have to say may not be mainstream advice but as a fellow ADHD Mum (my eldest is almost 8) I will offer personal experience.

When my children display negative behaviours like this usually jealousy and connection seeking are behind it.

I don't believe in punishments, I use natural consequences. In this instance when the kids are already under pressure (and I know my daughter does not cope well with unexpected changes so am also factoring that in) I would make the offender clean up all the mess including the washing, he would also need to pay to replace the damaged magazines (maybe only half of them though due to the fact he was reacting to what your other child did to him though). I would also acknowledge the behaviour that lead up to what he did with your other child but also reinforce that the right avenue to take is to come to an adult in the house to help the problem be resolved.

Then I would make time to spend individually with both of the children, quality time when no one is stressed or having to worry about keeping multiple kids happy has a wonderful effect on my children.

Then as long as it didn't happen again I would forget about it and move on.

If it happens again I would make the room off limits except at sleep time for him. Consequences that directly relate to the offence work so much better for us than punishments.

Good Luck, I hope the move and the individual bedrooms settle the problems you are having x

If I'm honest it is way over the top. He needs your love and support with his additional needs not punishment. The sharing room is going to cause disruption and problems - cut the boys some slack.

I have to say I have never felt the need to punish my DC but in this circumstance I would get them to clean the floor and pay for a replacement for the graphic novel. As well as having a big talk with them about it. If you must punish I think one thing like take away ipad would be proportionate. Don't make chores a punishment it just gives the every day necessary jobs we have to do a negative connotation. Don't humiliate him by making him go to bed the same time as a toddler.

I know how exhausting having a child with SN is

Maybe you would consider being gentle with him, in the way you want us to be gentle with you?

Impulse control is not his fault. Your reaction to wee on the floor is incredibly extreme. We’re not talking about it an adult, we’re talking about an neurodiverse 9 year old.

I've never quite got the anti-smacking idea. Essentially you are removing a sharp short sting at the time so it's directly relatable and replacing it with an extended psychological tournament.