to object to teaching students without a reason for not wearing a mask

[evenmoreforthemoor]

I teach teenagers.

I have to wear a mask to protect them from me.

They don't have to wear a mask if they have a 'reason'. We are not allowed to ask them what their reason is.

I am fine with teaching learners who have a genuine reason for not wearing one. But I want to know if it is genuine or not. And yes, I think I should be able to ask why and refuse to have them in my classroom if they choose not to wear one for a reason that I believe is spurious.

What would be my legal status if I refused to teach them?

Am wondering if there are any test cases with regards to this.

It would really make things easier if there was an official exemption card similar to blue badges.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

If doctors can cope in 12 hr shifts in full PPE then I think our little darlings (mine included) can be expected to wear a mask to prevent making others sick wow maybe you should have a change of career OP, the way you reference children with such contempt is concerning!

It's not concerning. It's a joke. You'll note I include my own children in that statement.

I think my learners are wonderful. Teaching those with EBD is not easy and you have to have a sense of humour about what you do.

However, some parents do think that their children are much more important than others and they're not.

Time to get back to normal

I'm nothing but lovely to him. I have an issue with him not wearing a mask, not an issue with him as a person.

You're blaming him for the risk to you. The blame should lie with your college management.

Where does it say she has mental health problems?

You said she was insane...

@ChaChaCha2012

This child has been indoctrinated by his mother that masks are harmful. Her information is flawed, but that doesn't stop the feelings that the child has a result of it. Surely you can see that wearing a mask will cause him extreme distress?

Some really nasty ablism on this thread, from you OP as well as others. You know suicide and mental health crisis rates have gone through the roof? You're a part of that, I hope you're ashamed of yourself.

I'm not ashamed of myself at all. I'm an awesome human being who does a great job with young people.

My right to health trumps the right to not revealing why a mask can not be worn. And that makes me an awful human being? Fine, I'll live with that.

Try just doing your bloody job
ODFOD. We are dropping like flies. It is only a matter of time till school staff start dying.

I don’t think it’s fair to ask an 11yr old to be in a mask for 7 -8hrs when you factor in their travel too

But it is fair to ask school staff, many of who have one or more vulnerabilities, to work in enclosed, poorly ventilated rooms with 30 children at a time, for up to 7 hours a day without any form of protection whatsoever?

I'd be absolutely fine with my dc being required to wear masks. My 5 year old isn't, my 11 year old has to in corridors but not classrooms, my 14 year old is at an alternative placement where he is supposed to wear one at all times but never does (he says because no one cares). But I would support mask wearing being required of them all.

@titchy

By insane I meant off the wall in terms of her ideas. As far as I know she has no mental health problems.

You know suicide and mental health crisis rates have gone through the roof? You're a part of that, I hope you're ashamed of yourself

Everything I have read suggest suicide rates in young people at least are down? The only young people I know with mental health issues had them way before lockdown. For some, the current situation has improved things because they are not feeling forced into social situations that make them uncomfortable. So no, not ashamed at all.

This is an opinion thread, I think wearing a mask all day would hinder learning. We already have seen interactive lessons scrapped, hot lunches scrapped etc, and personally feel we need to stop limiting our children. The “nothing is worse than covid” and “kids in Victorian times had it hard erm debates don’t wash with me.
Like I said just my opinion

[quote evenmoreforthemoor]@titchy

By insane I meant off the wall in terms of her ideas. As far as I know she has no mental health problems.[/quote]
Please stop misusing the word insane then.

"VacantHead

Time to get back to normal"

Is that your considered solution @VacantHead? And what does normal look like? Do we ignore the rising numbers being hospitalised, or just shove them straight in the ground as soon as they start coughing so we can still get our hair cut and our boils lanced without any annoying covid stuff getting in the way?

• And do you think people with asthma or other breathing difficulties should have to wear one? Or people with autism? You can't just say everyone should wear one. Be serious.*

Why not people with asthma or breathing difficulties? Masks don't affect oxygen levels in any way. People have run marathons wearing masks plus an oxygen saturation monitor to show the masks do not affect levels. Yes they take a bit of getting used to at first, but people can build up at home. My son and I both have asthma and wear them without difficulties (after getting used to them at home). In fact it is because of my asthma I am a very avid mask wearer.
Some people with autism wear masks too. Of course I understand that's not possible for all with autism but plenty can and do so.
Masks greatly reduce transmission of COVID. Children in many countries wear them and wear them effectively. It's not rocket science.

@SpearmintPeppermint

Please stop misusing the word insane then.

It's not a misuse.

It's not a medical term and the dictionary says it can be used to mean both 'utterly senseless'.

IMO a person who believes that Covid is a lie and that 5G masts give migraines is utterly senseless and therefore insane.

I think you are right OP.

A refusal to wear a mask in these circumstances is outing others at risk.

If they think the virus is a lie, I would assume they don’t follow the 2 metre rule, or mixing households or washing hands etc.

They are high risk and I wouldn’t want them in my class either.

@Enoughnowstop

Try just doing your bloody job ODFOD. We are dropping like flies. It is only a matter of time till school staff start dying.

I don’t think it’s fair to ask an 11yr old to be in a mask for 7 -8hrs when you factor in their travel too

But it is fair to ask school staff, many of who have one or more vulnerabilities, to work in enclosed, poorly ventilated rooms with 30 children at a time, for up to 7 hours a day without any form of protection whatsoever?

An 11year old would be in school to get an education. A teacher would be there to teach (i.e. is being paid to be there) so yes, asking school staff to wear masks is different.

I also think it's a shame people are minimising mental health but pleading the case of the vulnerable. I would argue a significant amount of covid-vulnerable people have self inflicted their vulnerability (e.g. diabetes and asthma caused by obesity). Not ALL but SOME.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, I am not saying those who are vulnerable shouldn't be protected, more that it's coming across that it has dominant inportance over mental health.

My sympathies about the mask situation. I am grateful that I teach adults and it's all distance learning.

But it doesn't make a difference if they have a "reason" or not - the danger to you is exactly the same. BESD problems can be innate or they can be made worse by family circumstances (including crazy family members) so I would think of it all as one big "can't".

all the tutors know the medical/SEN/mental health details about all their students anyway. They need to know so they can make reasonable adjustments.

At university that would be considered bad practice. I know about my own tutees with their agreement - they usually tell me anyway. I do not know about other students I teach - I know what adjustments I am expected to make for each student but not why. Except for a very few students with complex needs when the reasons may have to be shared (again with the student's agreememnt) in order to support them properly. Mostly, we don't.

But in truth no-one needs to know why a student can't wear a mask.

My right to health trumps the right to not revealing why a mask can not be worn.

Knowing the reason or not, having a reason or not, makes no difference to your health. The best reason in the world poses the same risk to your health.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

My sympathies about the mask situation. I am grateful that I teach adults and it's all distance learning.

But it doesn't make a difference if they have a "reason" or not - the danger to you is exactly the same. BESD problems can be innate or they can be made worse by family circumstances (including crazy family members) so I would think of it all as one big "can't".

all the tutors know the medical/SEN/mental health details about all their students anyway. They need to know so they can make reasonable adjustments.

At university that would be considered bad practice. I know about my own tutees with their agreement - they usually tell me anyway. I do not know about other students I teach - I know what adjustments I am expected to make for each student but not why. Except for a very few students with complex needs when the reasons may have to be shared (again with the student's agreememnt) in order to support them properly. Mostly, we don't.

But in truth no-one needs to know why a student can't wear a mask.

My right to health trumps the right to not revealing why a mask can not be worn.

Knowing the reason or not, having a reason or not, makes no difference to your health. The best reason in the world poses the same risk to your health.

Unis are very different to what I do.

Most of my learners have an EHCP which I write and therefore I need to know everything about them to ensure they are well supported.

What I said earlier is I don't have to know why they can't wear a mask but I think someone in our institution needs to know. It provides a barrier for those who actually don't have a reason which may make them think twice about it.

I think someone in our institution needs to know. It provides a barrier for those who actually don't have a reason which may make them think twice about it.

If you phrase it as "we need to know reasons so that we can find ways to better support them to wear masks" you might get further than you would get by trying to create barriers for those who don't have a (good enough) reason.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

I think someone in our institution needs to know. It provides a barrier for those who actually don't have a reason which may make them think twice about it.

If you phrase it as "we need to know reasons so that we can find ways to better support them to wear masks" you might get further than you would get by trying to create barriers for those who don't have a (good enough) reason.

I'm sure we would make it sound like a positive.

Thanks for the suggestion.

But surely those who don't want to wear one just because they cba would say they are exempt and tick your suggested "rather not say" box anyways? So seems a bit redundant, no? Besides, what gives you or anyone else the right to decide what is a valid enough reason for some else not to wear a mask?

Also to the person suggesting mental health conditions have to be diagnosed that is hugely problematic. There's not enough funding in children and adolescent services to diagnose everyone. Or maybe a child knows they have a problem but are too scared to get help or have parents who "don't believe" in getting help for mental health conditions.

I'm sorry if you feel that trying to protect my own health and that of my students means that I am full of self importance. As a mum and a teacher I think I am pretty important!? What's making you sound full of self importance is the making out like you personally need to know their reasons. Not even need to know, you've said you think it is your right!
Lots of people are parents and lots of people have jobs. We don't think it makes us super special/important.

I would argue a significant amount of covid-vulnerable people have self inflicted their vulnerability (e.g. diabetes and asthma caused by obesity). Not ALL but SOME

You clearly know sod all about diabetes. Type 1 is not self inflicted and type 1s have very poor outcomes compared with the rest of us. I am utterly beyond pissed off with the number of people who consider type 1’s nothing other than collateral damage. Maybe if it were your child, you would think differently. Try hearing the words ‘no type 1 under the age of 20has died of Covid’ and think about what that means before spouting your ‘it’s your own fault’. Utter shite.

@WaterOffADucksCrack

I'm sorry if you feel that trying to protect my own health and that of my students means that I am full of self importance. As a mum and a teacher I think I am pretty important!? What's making you sound full of self importance is the making out like you personally need to know their reasons. Not even need to know, you've said you think it is your right! Lots of people are parents and lots of people have jobs. We don't think it makes us super special/important.

This is why you need to RTFT.

After discussion with some rational posters I realised that I don't need to know personally but having that info lodged with a person responsible for assessing need would be useful. It may separate out those who need to have dispensation and those who don't.

And yes, I think I'm pretty important and also a special kind of human, as a teacher and a mother and lots of other ways too. I also think most other people are important and special, I have good self esteem and tend to see the good in most people. I'm not sure I would be in the job I'm in otherwise.

Not sure why you're so hell bent on making me feel bad about it?!

I work in schools with children of all ages. My job involves close (hands on) contact for prolonged periods with different children in multiple environments. Most of the children have EHCP’s. I would never expect any of them to wear a mask during my sessions because they’re barriers to learning and communication especially for children with additional needs who usually have enough to contend with. I wear one to protect them and I hate it.

Nobody needs to provide you with a reason like you say, so probably not worth your energy trying to make them provide school with one if they’re not forthcoming. I’m also sure recognised behavioural or emotional difficulties in themselves would be supported by most medical professionals as a good enough reason for an exemption.

You may be best turning the focus on your employer and how they’re protecting you if you can’t maintain distance and don’t even have a window. Legally I don’t imagine I’d get far if I refused to see a child on the basis they haven’t provided a reason for not wearing a mask.