To think that the current traffic restrictions are fucking ridiculous

[Gobelinoisawitchescat]

I live in SE London - and since these sodding barriers have gone up all over the place the roads are just completely blocked with traffic.

While I know someone is going to come on talking about climate change etc - am not sure how directing all the traffic to one location makes a damn bit of difference - the cars are still on the roads, they’re just concentrated in certain ones.

Am I missing something?

@JaggySplinter

But my family members also live around and about all the areas that are being discuss in zone 3/4 SE London so I do travel around this area with my DC regularly.

I appreciate that different people make different choices, but there's no basis to arguing that people need to use or own a private car. It's really clear that it's a choice and not a need.

As for social care/SN transport issues, if that really is the case across Lewisham LTNs then that makes them a serious exception to other LTNs across the country and that's exactly the kind of adjustment that gets made during a trial if the council gets and acts on feedback.

Yes @JaggySplinter that really is the case for the Lewisham LTN. It's one of the main reasons people have been asking and asking to see the equality impact assessment.

how do you think people without cars do all those things? It is possible, it's looking for the alternative rather than looking for barriers

They live in areas where you can walk to places. I live in the very outskirts of London and you need to get in a car for everything.

Mollscroll - why do you need a car to get soap dishes and lightbulbs?

No my point was I would have got all this stuff on the High St which is close by. No need for a car. Now that the High St is going (and shops such as Maplins have gone) you have no choice but to get items delivered that you would previously have got yourself by foot.

I was responding to someone saying the shift to delivery reduces traffic. It reduces traffic where it’s one vehicle delivering bulky items all round town which would previously have been done by multiple private cars. But my guess is that this is offset by someone delivering lightbulbs to my door in a van.

Every house in an LTN is accessible by car. Health workers, deivery drivers etc can get in and out

Tell that to the Brixton GP who spoke at a demo a couple of weeks ago. The LTNs have created cul de sacs of up to a mile long and a 4 mile route between the exit from one zone to the entry of another, where previously a care worker could drive quickly between clients. The perimeter roads are now highly congested. Not just by displaced traffic but buy lane closures to allow wider pavements (a good and sensible move).

A home visit care team including palliative care now cannot get round all their clients in time.

We have found that out LTN is based on spurious stats with no reliable base line data.

The glib ideologically driven answers continually dismiss the real concerns of people with real practical issues.

The upset between those within the LTN and on the perimeter roads, and the dismissal of views of those on perimeter roads by proLTN campaigners has caused deep rifts and tension across a community that has always been strong and pulled together during lockdown.

One campaigner from a perimeter road has had death threats and her address put on Twitter by the more extreme element of the cycling lobby.

The way this was implemented, without consultation , is disastrous.

If it was whole London suddenly forced off cars it be one thing. Planned so people can plan and make big life changed. Not a council takes a felt pen and enforces extreme measures on set post codes. That feels like a punishment. I’m disabled so it will always be a punishment to make it hard and longer to use the car.

Mollscroll - high streets closing down is a different issue but one van doing multiple drops is still better than many individual car journeys. Still I would have probably cycled or bused to get that kind of stuff though.

www.wlbikelibrary.co.uk/free-bike-hire-for-nhs-and-care-workers/
Great scheme by a council in Scotland to give free bikes to care workers, itll be like call the midwife!

My SIL is a GP doing mostly elderly care and home visits. She does them by bike because she never learned to drive. I have a GP friend who does the same, but because she likes to cycle. Anecdotes don't really help, because you can always find someone who has a different opinion.

LTNs need adjustment, and people need time to adjust to living with them.

What's really clear is that cities and the world can't go on with ever increasing car use and still function. Pollution kills people.

LTNs are part of a solution that also needs better alternative transportation infrastructure, including for cycling and walking.

Agree with the OP - absolute nightmare. W London here and we have them all over the place. Horrendous. Can't get to our own street / house without an additional 20 mins in the car. Def not helping pollution here. And its bugger all to do with Covid.

What's really clear is that cities and the world can't go on with ever increasing car use and still function. Pollution kills people.

LTNs are part of a solution that also needs better alternative transportation infrastructure, including for cycling and walking.

and sometimes people/businesses need to be forced to re-think and adjust.

remember the cries of woe when energy inefficient lightbulbs were banned, plastic shopping bags stopped being free?

both turned out to lead to innovations and people adapting to it.

@Macncheeseballs

Brockleygirl, so it seems that yes your car is very useful for dropping kid off at football which possibly is outside an ltn anyway, not sure? And the other errands you mention dont necessarily need to be done by car? If you need a car, use it, we are talking about using it less.

What other errands? Collecting a large item of furniture that can’t be carried or taking 6 large bags or clothing for a charity shop? What are you talking about?

@Username6210 I think you know that's not true. The protest in Ealing a few weeks ago would show you that not everyone in that area loves them.

Brockleygirl, apologies, you didnt mention it was a large piece of furniture in the post I was referring to, you just said 'delivery', even so possibly not a regular occurrence? And coincidentally I am taking 3 bags of stuff to the charity shop today, on my bike

If you read my post in context it was in response to someone saying to organise a delivery of a unit rather than drive to collect. I was saying that it creates less pollution to pick something large up by combining it with other essential car journeys. I actually bloody hate driving in London and though I’m not a cyclist walk miles. Kids know that my motto is only drive if it’s too far to walk.

Please please however spend some time thinking about how these measures are affecting others. I had a meeting this morning and some of my colleagues are broken and ready to leave. Do you have any idea how hard it is to recruit in health and social care in London. 9000 nurse vacancies in London and it took me 2 years to recruit an OT. I’m sure staff in other areas feel equally demoralised from the ongoing stress of gridlocked traffic. The group that I feel most sorry for are carers both formal and informal. Formal carers are poorly paid and many don’t get paid for travel. Informal careers (many in their 60’s and 70’s) visit elderly parents frequently to provide support, get shopping etc they wouldn’t be able to do this without a car.

So you're blaming traffic jams for the difficulties in recruiting staff? 'Please please please' think about how these measures are benefitting thousands, although I appreciate not all.

@Macncheeseballs

So you're blaming traffic jams for the difficulties in recruiting staff? 'Please please please' think about how these measures are benefitting thousands, although I appreciate not all.

Did I say that?????????!!!!! Retention, yes. I’d just like to keep the ones I have and yes it really is that bad.

It doesn't matter how many times people are told, if all they want to do is stick their fingers in their ears and go "la la la everything is great", they will.

We have found that out LTN is based on spurious stats with no reliable base line data.

The glib ideologically driven answers continually dismiss the real concerns of people with real practical issues.

Yes. "We should drive less,"- well fair enough, I agree. I don't drive myself. But that's not helpful to someone who finds that a scheme like this has increased traffic and pollution on their road, gridlocked the traffic and screwed up public transport timetables for miles around, is it?

The reason the terrible way these schemes are enacted makes me so fed up (well, apart from them disproportionately benefitting the affluent at the cost of the disadvantaged) is that change really IS necessary, and we're already massively overdue for it... and here people are ramming through poorly thought out, barely consulted on change in a way that so massively disrupts and further disadvantages many people that their opposition to measures to reduce car use only grows. It's so short sighted and such a waste of goodwill.

I lost my goodwill years ago when I saw the pollution levels rising in our cities, people ignoring it and glibly driving their kids to school 5 minutes away, or short trips that could be done in other ways. Many people are very happy about ltns.

lewisham.gov.uk/articles/news/our-covid-19-travel-programme-in-lewisham-and-lee-green

Here's the map of the area where upthread someone said that there were areas that were no longer accessible to delivery drivers. Unless the modal filters were put in different places than on the map, every road is still accessible without passing a filter.

As to saying these plans are poorly thought out... Many have been in planning band consultation for years just with really poor engagement efforts. They are all trials so you can feedback on problems and mistakes and get them corrected/changed.

@JaggySplinter

lewisham.gov.uk/articles/news/our-covid-19-travel-programme-in-lewisham-and-lee-green

Here's the map of the area where upthread someone said that there were areas that were no longer accessible to delivery drivers. Unless the modal filters were put in different places than on the map, every road is still accessible without passing a filter.

As to saying these plans are poorly thought out... Many have been in planning band consultation for years just with really poor engagement efforts. They are all trials so you can feedback on problems and mistakes and get them corrected/changed.

That map’s not correct the top of Davenport Road and Eastdown Road are both closed for a start. Do you have an up to date map?

Also transporting heavy laptops and equipment to and from workplace as some work is being done remotely

@Macncheeseballs

I lost my goodwill years ago when I saw the pollution levels rising in our cities, people ignoring it and glibly driving their kids to school 5 minutes away, or short trips that could be done in other ways. Many people are very happy about ltns.

I wonder how much goodwill the people whose streets have been made significantly worse have towards those living happy in ltns?

@brockleygirl46 - no. That's the latest one that Lewisham published I think. Try Lewisham council member for the environment or contact the council directly.

@Brockleygirl46 - here is where you can comment online

lewishamcovidresidentialstreets.commonplace.is/about

Had ours for a few weeks, we are miserable. All the drivers who are working are stressed beyond. We have never had an accident on our road and now loads of near misses. There is no room to turn. We have double the traffic one way as all cars can’t see it’s closed till they reach the dead end. So they all have to double back. The side of the road that is flowing is also much busier. While they try and get ahead of other LTN areas.

Drivers are now driving very aggressively as this is probable 10th road they found closed trying to go about their jobs. Those who are ignoring the no entry sign are also flooring their cars and speeding along the only bit of the road that has any benefit. None of these things were problems before.

We could well be on our way to local lockdown. Everyone will be ordering online and can see companies just refusing certain postcodes out of sure logistical. Or charge us double delivery for all the extra time.

I thought the council were installing this for our benefit?