To think that the current traffic restrictions are fucking ridiculous

[Gobelinoisawitchescat]

I live in SE London - and since these sodding barriers have gone up all over the place the roads are just completely blocked with traffic.

While I know someone is going to come on talking about climate change etc - am not sure how directing all the traffic to one location makes a damn bit of difference - the cars are still on the roads, they’re just concentrated in certain ones.

Am I missing something?

Also I think people are missing the point. If the non essential traffic were reduced then the essential traffic (buses/ people taking their children to special schools etc) would have a much better time of it.
Since driving is convenient many who might otherwise not drive do. Making driving less convenient is one major way to drive change. Whether that change is deciding on a local school over one a drive away or walking to the shops (instead of driving) to pick up the milk is irrelevant.
The transition process is painful but is that a good enough reason to can the idea?

DownToTheSea the South London area of Penge/Beckenham does not have ANY local authority (aka 'Community') run secondary schools. They are all Academies. Mostly from the same academy chain (rhymes with Paris - some of you will know which one I mean). Even some of the primary schools have now been taken over by this chain.
Locals are not guaranteed places. Several children in the area were offered a secondary for Yr7 that's in a completely different borough because the Academy schools were 'full' with non local children. Some parents had to look this school up on a map because it's so un-local they hadn't heard of it.
Many local children are denied a place at their 'local' school (primary or secondary) because of the bizarre admission system.

@bookmum08

DownToTheSea the South London area of Penge/Beckenham does not have ANY local authority (aka 'Community') run secondary schools. They are all Academies. Mostly from the same academy chain (rhymes with Paris - some of you will know which one I mean). Even some of the primary schools have now been taken over by this chain. Locals are not guaranteed places. Several children in the area were offered a secondary for Yr7 that's in a completely different borough because the Academy schools were 'full' with non local children. Some parents had to look this school up on a map because it's so un-local they hadn't heard of it. Many local children are denied a place at their 'local' school (primary or secondary) because of the bizarre admission system.

I honestly think you are missing the point. What I am saying is that these schemes are there to drive behavioural change - specifically to get us to get out of our cars and chose a different form of travel. The school thing was an example of how this might have a longer term impact. Not that it will but it might. Obviously schooling is much more complex than this. I think the situation in ED where people are in a schools black spot is nuts but it is not what this thread is all about. You have to start behavioural change somewhere and starting it this way is IMO a good thing, despite the massive upheaval that it is causing in the short term.

Ok point taken DownToTheSea. The school system is just one part of it.
I don't know what the solution is tbh. I can't drive. Or afford a car. I walk or use public transport.

The Low Traffic Neighbourhoods are a nightmare. They just displace traffic away from low pollution roads onto high pollution roads. Our GP says the many ‘long way rounds’ adds hours to the routes her Home Care teams do and they can’t manage the workload.

It is important to complete whatever feedback opportunities you Council is providing and to write to your Cllrs. It is a 6 month trial. If people moan but do nothing it will be made permanent.

What I am saying is that these schemes are there to drive behavioural change - specifically to get us to get out of our cars and chose a different form of travel

That’s the theory. The reality is that people spend longer sitting in traffic jams and taking longer routes, creating more pollution on surrounding main roads. Plumbers , electricians, care workers etc cannot manage without transport. Women (typically) managing a f/t job and a family cannot usually shop every day (and to do so adds COVID risk) so will need a car, an Uber or a delivery van to manage a weekly family shop.

It is a load of ideological bollocks driven by the v powerful cycling lobby.

I am all for cycling, I cycle too, but this is ‘make life impossible for bastard drivers’ rather than an effective measure.

Its happened in my town too. All the roads closed are vital for emergency services, carers and bin men ect. I wrote to my local mp who couldnt give a shit. Had numerous arguments on facebook with the cycle squad (who I never see on these roads) its getting beyond a joke now. Who ever decided to do this obviously is an idiot who doesnt rely on the services ive mentioned. Its chaotic and is causing more harm to the environment as we're all stuck i. Traffic far more than before.

Isn't this aimed at encouraging more cycling? That can only be a good thing and we really need to do something positive with the fact that bike sales surged during lockdown. The more people who travel by bike, the fewer cars will be on the road.

I think it is dangerous to see this as a pro cycling = anti cars thing. I just think they are trying to encourage walking/ cycling for shorter journeys so that there is space on the road for the cars/ vans/ buses etc that need them.

It is a fact that during lockdown there were fewer cars on the road which meant that many who would normally have felt uncomfortable cycling took the plunge. As @AntsInPenzance says this can only be a good thing.

Personally I think they should keep them going for a year before they decide. Long enough for people to explore alternatives if relevant.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I’d love someone to show me how I can cycle with my dogs perched in the basket when they need the vet. They are big hairy beasts.

Nobody is telling you to cycle for every single journey though. I use my car for big grocery shops and transporting bulky items, but I use a bike if I need to pop to the local high street for a few items or to pop into the city centre, and I didn't even know how to ride a bike until lockdown.

If I can learn to ride a bike in my 40's and use it to replace 25-30% of my car journeys, then lots of other people can as well.

I think repeating that others are missing the point is rather missing the point yourself. The cost of these schemes is greater than the benefit because the infrastructure is not in place to make them workable. And the roads they push traffic onto are made horrendous. I don't see why people on road A should have more traffic, pollution, noise and congestion to benefit people on road B.

@unmarkedbythat

I think repeating that others are missing the point is rather missing the point yourself. The cost of these schemes is greater than the benefit because the infrastructure is not in place to make them workable. And the roads they push traffic onto are made horrendous. I don't see why people on road A should have more traffic, pollution, noise and congestion to benefit people on road B.

How do you define benefit? You can't magic up an entire new infrastructure just like that, you have to start somewhere.

My contention is that if we give it a year people will learn to adapt to the new system. Maybe more people will consider not driving and the roads will be clearer for those who need to drive. Some may start to cycle or walk when they might previously have driven thus benefitting themselves from a fitness pov and the environment from a pollution one. It is not about benefitting Road B over Road A but in the long term brining benefit to both roads and the community as a whole.

It takes time and in the interim is painful. I get that but I do think it is a price worth paying.

I’m not entirely sure what journeys people assume this is stopping. People this far out are generally not commuting in their cars (unless they work in the local community and need a car to travel between appointments). Even in usual traffic not many in their right mind would choose the car over walking

I both own and drive a car. But I choose to use a bicycle or walk for as many of my journeys as possible. I have persuaded one friend to start cycling (by volunteering to go out with her the first few times, lending her an old bike til she was sure she wanted to buy one, making sure we picked low traffic routes). She now cycles regularly. She in turn has persuaded a mutual friend to get a bike. Hopefully in the next year/six months we'll persuaded the final one of our group of four. And the more we cycle the more the council will cater for us, and the more cars expect you etc. Yes you get wet in winter but honestly I have concluded that getting wet and a bit cold (as long as you take a change of clothes if you're e.g. going to work) is just something you get used to and stop minding. Now I cycle to work regularly (though much reduced since lockdown as I'm not going in as much) I see the benefit to my health, and my mental health - people don't see that before they start, and the fear of cars becomes much less once you learn to ride assertively.

42% of journeys are under 2 miles, and of those about 40% (so over 15% of total journeys) are made by car. If we could replace a bit more than half those with public transport, cycling or walking, traffic on the roads would be down 10%.

Another quarter of journeys are between 2 and 5 miles. 80% of those are made by car (so 20% of all journeys). If we could halve those too then you'd have cut motor traffic by 20% and that's without even changing choices about where to travel.

@unmarkedbythat

Oh god, is it an Active Neighbourhoods thing? There has been great drama about the attempted imposition of such a scheme in Levenshulme in Manchester and since it has been paused due to a large number of local residents having real concerns about the scheme as is, the reaction of those who were leading it has been vile. Such nastiness, untruthfulness and anger, it's left me quite shocked. I see the thinking behind these schemes but they have to work for all affected, not just a lucky few, and they don't work unless the infrastructure is in place around them to make alternatives to driving genuinely workable.

We’ve got one near us which was imposed on us with no consultation. Some residents are restricted to one exit off the estate, through the busiest roads, plus an extra mile on their journey.

In our area it’s been led by a cycle action group, and the guy who is running it thinks he’s a trendy young liberal activist and revolutionary. In real life he is a nasty bully who will only accept people making the same life choices as him. The name calling of people who don’t agree is shocking.

They also want to turn our area into a 20 minute zone, which is all fine and good but other than schools there’s not much in the way of infrastructure within a 20 minute walk

@unmarkedbythat

I think repeating that others are missing the point is rather missing the point yourself. The cost of these schemes is greater than the benefit because the infrastructure is not in place to make them workable. And the roads they push traffic onto are made horrendous. I don't see why people on road A should have more traffic, pollution, noise and congestion to benefit people on road B.

Well said. I find many of these posts massively patronising and self absorbed. Whoever suggested just doing 25-30% of journeys walking or cyclIng. Do you not think we already do that and more! Despite being an essential car user for the NHS I still average around 15,000 steps per day taking and collecting kids from school/clubs etc by foot.

This is about social injustice and the fact that some think they have more right to clean air than others. There are other ways to reduce pollution without putting lives, essential services and livelihoods at risk. Why not ration petrol, provide incentives to switch to electric cars. I’m all up for a discussion but imposing this with no consultation is a blatant misuse of power.

Take away those who should not have a car/licence for medical conditions that they have kept hidden, those who should be banned because of their conduct (usually men who are inadequate between their legs) and those who are too lazy to walk a mile or less, and there would be plenty of space on the roads.

@Brockleygirl46 well said. I can’t help but think that those spouting off about their wonderful bike journeys to work have no fucking clue about the impact that these closures are having on the (surprise surprise) less affluent roads which they are driving the traffic to.
Or that fact that it’s his users and essential workers who are paying the majority of the price for this traffic.

I live in a really mediocre part of town on a main road. I'm not spouting off about wonderful bike journeys to work, I'm giving my experience: and actually further up the thread I commented specifically on some of the difficulties being caused by some of the changes. But I am saying there are plenty of short journeys being made by car where in all likelihood a proportion of them could be made not by car. I'm not saying you don't make short journeys on foot, but given the number of short journeys made by motor vehicle there are clearly people not doing.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmtrans/1487/148705.htm

Evidence for figures from above.

If I can learn to ride a bike in my 40's and use it to replace 25-30% of my car journeys, then lots of other people can as well.

Oh don't lecture me.

I happy to walk wherever I can and use public transport for work. I'm not a car lover or big car user.

What I disagree with is the imposition of the LTNs, with no consultation and under the pretext of COVID measures. Some of them have been incredibly stupid and increased the air pollution in the neighbouring areas and have already been removed.

It’s not going away, roads have met saturation point and there is nowhere left to expand.

There was a lit of fuss when smoking was banned, but eventually people got used to it & many gave up, car drivers don’t have to use petrol or diesel & they’ll adjust

Someone up thread said distric nurses were taking out equipment, in other counties that is done by a separate company & DN just take themselves & a bag - perhaps that a solution to carting round Zimmer frames & commodes

@ivykaty44 I don’t get why you keep bringing up the smoking ban? It’s such a different issue.
The outrage then was that pubs would close etc (which they did).

This is about restrictions that seemingly punish people in low income roads by shoving traffic into them. It also punishes those who want to use Local public transport - as it’s at a standstill. It punishes those single mums who have kids to get to school in two areas of a borough and get to work in time or risk losing their job.

Me - to be fair, I’m just moaning about the traffic when I use my car around one to twice a week - I’m lucky. The people really suffering are not so lucky.

That’s your opinion, both smoking and driving effect negatively those that don’t do in a pollution way, people die early from the effects of the pollution from both

@ivykaty44

It’s not going away, roads have met saturation point and there is nowhere left to expand.

There was a lit of fuss when smoking was banned, but eventually people got used to it & many gave up, car drivers don’t have to use petrol or diesel & they’ll adjust

Someone up thread said distric nurses were taking out equipment, in other counties that is done by a separate company & DN just take themselves & a bag - perhaps that a solution to carting round Zimmer frames & commodes

I said that District Nurses had an unbelievable amount of home visits per day. They also carry heavy bags with equipment. Community physios and OT’s take out equipment which patients need to be assessed with. We can use a company to deliver. However that would mean a potential increase in visits from one if we go out to trial and leave the equipment to three if we visit to complete initial assessment, get the company to deliver and then visit again to review the patient using the equipment. We often need to adjust. The costs of getting a company to deliver massively increase the cost to the tax payer. Given the need for NHS services to be cost effective I think that this would be a massive waste of money when we can do it ourselves. I’m also not sure what relevance it is to LTN’s since the visit still involves the use of a vehicle?

We have cycle lane which have been put in usually a whole lane of traffic and hardly anyone cycles on them and the traffic grinds to a halt whilst there is a lane of emptiness.