To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

My experience is that I found the teachers in private pre/prep to be a bunch of snowflakes and the teachers in secondary independent to be very well educated and excellent. That's just my experience. Most of my DS's teachers in secondary are Dr. this and Dr. that and they all look about 30-35, they take no messing off the DC and the results are excellent.

When we were at primary I lost count of the number of teachers who joined the school, told me they used to work in a state school, and that they preferred private as the parents and children were interested in learning and their DC's education. Six months later the same teachers were upset because they had parents constantly on their back if their little darlings were not picked for sports teams, the lead in a play, not doing well academically or someone said something minor to their DC. A lot of these teachers also joined the school and then within months dropped to 4 days because it was too much for them. My secondary independent doesn't put up with stuff like this. If you asked me my opinion, I would say primary teachers in a private school are there because they think it is an easy gig. During lockdown we had a lot of teachers at our primary resign.

So, primary I'd say the teachers are not worse, but the ones I've come across are there because they can't hack the pressure of a state school and for secondary, I'd say the teachers are excellent but not sure of the comparison. That said, I know a head of year at our local comp and they are upset because they just lost 3 great teachers to my school.

If even a few of these families considered state education it would force government to rethink their approach to education radically

If the government radically rethought their approach to education many more of these families would consider state education.

Also, thinking about it. I think it’s much harder to be a bad teacher in a private schools which probably makes a big difference, ie the ones described by a pp who “don’t give a toss”. You wouldn’t get away with it for long, and not should you get away with it anywhere else. I’m not saying it’s rife elsewhere, I’m just saying that overall that makes a difference.

Conifer,

I am a believer in private schools but they have (as a sector, with a few notable exceptions such as Westminster, become ineffably smug).

They do not take their VAT exempt and charitable status seriously enough. Bursaries often go to previous few payers who can no longer afford the fees and other middle class people whose parents have invested in tutoring for a scholar exam. Very little effort is made to go outside the community to find those with poor education to date but real potential. In addition, the ‘partnerships’ with state schools often consist of inviting pupils to a few talks every year.

Even more seriously, private school inflation has been ridiculous, making them into the preserve of the seriously wealthy, mainly self employed, bankers etc. Fees are 10x what they were when I attended a private school, twice the rate of general inflation. Most of this has gone into facilities and a very over bloated co-curricular and pastoral staff structure.

I would really like to see private schools being part of the solution of improving the state sector and also a real engine for social mobility.

The teachers don’t have to be qualified and they don’t have to follow the national curriculum.

Nor do state academies.

If the government radically rethought their approach to education many more of these families would consider state education.

I disagree. I’m not talking here about families who find the money for private schooling because their local options are dire. Families who don’t consider state education even for a moment aren’t primarily motivated by educational standards. It is a social and cultural decision motivated by status as much as anything else.

Surely the best teachers are drawn to the schools that suit both their preference and their skill set. I know some amazing teachers who would never set foot in a private school because of their political beliefs. But also, it's about what kind of teacher you are. My teacher husband would still be a good teacher in a really deprived school with major behavioural problems, but he wouldn't be as good as a teacher who's really skilled in managing very troubled and challenging kids, dealing with certain kinds of pastoral issues, and differentiating for children who have very low academic ability. I think he'd do it pretty well, but it's not really his strength - and he probably wouldn't enjoy it. But - the teacher who is fantastic in that situation might not be as good at teaching in a highly academic school as DH is. Some of the kids he teaches are demanding in their own way - as a teacher you have to be academically at the top of your game just to keep up with them and meet their needs, and they have their own set of pastoral problems, often around the pressure they put on themselves to perform well. Neither of those 'types' of teacher is better than the other, but they have different if overlapping skill sets and are likely to be drawn to different schools.

some private school pupils can look down on someone who ‘is only a teacher’

WTF???? Have you ever met a private school pupil? Half of them are terrified of teachers, the entire system is pretty much BUILT on the premise of discipline and respect for authority. Part of the reason why you don’t see the same degree of challenging behaviour as you do elsewhere!

Whether or not the teaching is better, private schools limit their remit by only taking pupils from a particular socio economic band, and often then having an entrance exam.

I know some private school heads like to make headlines by ‘advising’ other schools, but if asked directly I think few would claim they were doing more than 5% of the job of a mainstream comprehensive school.

Private schools aren't the best option for all teachers - yea you get more well behaved kids but there's a lot of expectation for extra curricular activities, depending on what you teach. The PE teachers in the independent school I work at work just about every weekend - there's always a match on or training. Quite often it's away so they're up at 6am on a Saturday to get ready to go.

Also completely agree that most parent who have their children privately educated aren't doing it because the local school state don't measure up. Some are people who grew up in families where they went private, all their friends and families did, and they'd simply never look elsewhere because that's just their life and has been forever. And yes there is the status too.

I absolutely hated my school. It was a state school. I was bullied really badly because I didn’t fit in for whatever reason. I struggled in class and most of the teachers hung me out to dry. I couldn’t do work properly because if I ever asked questions or look like I was struggling I’d get bullied. I constantly at the receiving end of verbal abuse by large gangs of boys who I couldn’t escape from and it was impossible for me to get anything from my class time, so the teachers wrote me off. It was a vicious circle! But I was let down badly. I left with one C.

My husband also went to a state school where he was let down in various ways. He left at 15.

And due to that like fuck am I letting that shit happen to any of my kids. So yeah, for me it is actually about teachers, but not only that it’s also about the horrible little arsehole kids who made my life a misery and fucked up my education.

We should get rid of private schools and catchment areas, that’s the only way all schools will be able to be ‘good’ or ‘outstanding’.

I work in a school which serves the most deprived 9 areas in a huge city. We have no hope compared to other schools, and our kids need a good education the most. But while everyone who can afford to goes private, and small catchment areas in ‘rich’ areas don’t allow kids from we are to attend it’s a vicious circle.

Whether or not the teaching is better, private schools limit their remit by only taking pupils from a particular socio economic band, and often then having an entrance exam.

Not all private schools are selective. For non-selectives if there's an entrance exam it's to ascertain which sets to put them in.

@larrygrylls I would really like to see private schools being part of the solution of improving the state sector and also a real engine for social mobility.

But again this plays into the fact that somehow private schools are to blame for underperforming state schools. They’re not taking any resources away from state schools, we’ve established I think that they’re not poaching all the good teachers, so why should private school fees be redirected to state sector education which parents are already paying for through taxes but not using, when like I said above...

There is widespread privilege and economic advantage being used to inequitably access better provision in the state sector too!

I have more time for private that select on entry than weed out in later years.

Conifer,

WTF, to coin your delightful phrase!

‘I missed the lesson, please send me the catch up work’ (the please if you are lucky), ‘Flossie’s aspirational grade is an 8’-‘I want her to get a 9’’ etc etc.

It is well known that some pupils and, especially, parents see private school teachers as an extension of the domestic staff set up. Not many, most are lovely- but a good 10-20%.

Have you never experienced this?!

@GlummyMcGlummerson

Whether or not the teaching is better, private schools limit their remit by only taking pupils from a particular socio economic band, and often then having an entrance exam.

Not all private schools are selective. For non-selectives if there's an entrance exam it's to ascertain which sets to put them in.

No, they don’t all have an entrance exam but they all selective in that their intake is obviously limited to people who can afford to pay the fees.

I wonder where all the "rich" SEN kids go, if they are not in private schools?

Many SEN schools are private.

No, they don’t all have an entrance exam but they all selective in that their intake is obviously limited to people who can afford to pay the fees.

This ^

@larrygrylls

Conifer,

WTF, to coin your delightful phrase!

‘I missed the lesson, please send me the catch up work’ (the please if you are lucky), ‘Flossie’s aspirational grade is an 8’-‘I want her to get a 9’’ etc etc.

It is well known that some pupils and, especially, parents see private school teachers as an extension of the domestic staff set up. Not many, most are lovely- but a good 10-20%.

Have you never experienced this?!

I don’t teach but if I did I’d do state I reckon. I’d find badly behaved students more palatable than above. The only draw for private might be fee discount if dc in school.

But even then I’m not sure I could do it.

Conifer,

It is not the fees that are being redirected but the charitable status and the VAT break (about 10-20% of the total).

They are not charities in any real sense of the word. Why should they not give back at least a meaningful proportion of this tax rebate (government money really, not theirs) to the community.

It is also actually a benefit to the school and pupils to help those worse off. Why not consider why Westminster, arguably the best school in the country, has decided to go ‘needs blind’ by 2050?

Not all private schools are selective

Yes. I said that.

*It is well known that some pupils and, especially, parents see private school teachers as an extension of the domestic staff set up. Not many, most are lovely- but a good 10-20%.

Have you never experienced this?!*

No never!! I went to a state school, where there were kids who openly abused the teachers, swore at the teachers, disrespected the teachers, and told the teachers they didn’t have to do what they said because they were “only” teachers.

My kids go to (different) private schools (because not all private schools are the same and not all kids are either) and if for one second a child disrespected a teacher they’d be hauled into the headmasters office and disciplined.

So for the “10-20%” of private school kids who you suggest “look down” on teachers there are also an unquantifiable number elsewhere who treat them like something on the bottom of their shoe.

No, they don’t all have an entrance exam but they all selective in that their intake is obviously limited to people who can afford to pay the fees

Well obviously I don't think it's a bad thing to expect people to pay for services. At my school we certainly don't check prospective parents bank statements. 25% of pupils on our roll are paid for by their grandparents and many live in a 2 up 2 down. I really don't know where people get the idea that only posh rich kids are ever allowed to be privately educated.

Though independent schools do have scholarships and bursaries too for the lower earners

As a pp mentioned at the private school I work in all staff qualifications are freely available for parents to see - I’ve never seen that at a state school. I work in the Nursery department of the pre prep and even nursery assistants have to be a minimum of level 3, no level 2s are employed. And there is a qualified Early Years teacher even in the 2 year olds class.
There are good and bad teachers in private and state education. But It’s easier to get rid of poor staff in private schools.