To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

I wonder where all the "rich" SEN kids go, if they are not in private schools?

PRivate tutors at home, maybe?
I know there was one severely autistic child at a local private school when I was at school - he was a gifted mathematical genius though, one of the incredibly rare "savants". I'm not sure, in hindsight, that the school looked after him as well as they could have done, and I know damn well the bus drivers didn't.

But results do speak volumes, and if the teachers were not able to teach, then the results would reflect that.

It's hardly a surprise that results from affluent backgrounds are better. The vocabulary gap explains most of it!

Excellent teachers will be drawn to the most academic, high achieving schools, so they are able to teach to a very high level with children committed and focused on learning. It can be very rewarding.
It is also an easier job when you have a class full of children that actively want to do well, and parents that support the children to achieve very high results.

The holidays are also longer and the pay is better (in our school at least) and there is a level of calm and respect from the students that I am not sure would be there in a large comprehensive.

But results do speak volumes, and if the teachers were not able to teach, then the results would reflect that.

They are also more likely to have private tutors, higher achieving kids from day one if there is an entrance exam, less distractions In lessons; more
One-one support, smaller classes so more support in lessons, less chaotic home lives,
Quiet space at home to work, in 6th form less likely to need to get a part time job, if their parents are unwell they are more likely to be able to afford a carer rather than child doing it on top of school etc etc etc

My DC are at private school. I don’t think the teachers are better then in the state sector (although I think they are all really good). My children go there because of small classes and great facilities. Lovely nurturing feel. No SATs.

It is more diverse then the local schools. We are in a majority white town in the SE. There is effectively one state school where all the middle class parents do not want their kids to go to, which has a huge proportion of BAME. My children are mixed race. In one son’s class a 1/3 of children are BAME and another it’s a half.

There are excellent teachers in both sectors. However I would say that, on average, the teaching (although not the teachers) is probably better in the independent sector.

This is because independent school teachers have a smaller marking burden (smaller classes and sets) and more non contact time to prepare lessons (often significantly more). Also, generally, good teachers are given more freedom from dogma (although. I think that is changing, sadly). An excellent teacher will not be pulled up due to lack of marking (for instance) if they are consistently popular and get excellent results.

Probably the best teaching does take place in the state sector where the best can not only cope with the teaching time and marking burden, but also prepare highly differentiated lessons for very diverse pupils. However, how long that is sustainable is debatable. Often, marriage and children takes those teachers out of the system, when they are no longer willing to put in 80 hour weeks for a very ordinary amount of money.

I teach in a private school. I wouldn't say the teachers are better but in my experience we are given more free periods to be able to plan which makes me able to deliver better lessons than I otherwise could. Smaller classes helps too.

The year I watch GCSE s my state high school out performed two local private schools. Although our facilities were mediocre, the teachers were experienced and there was a general ethos of motivation as well as an excellent range of extra curricular activities on offer. Very diverse culturally as it was an inner city school but my goodness me I learned so much more than being in a more suburban school. We had doorstep access to museums, art galleries and took a price in our school and eachother. My mum and dad used to send me off alone on a fifteen mile bus ride each morning aged 11. Good times.

My teachers at primary/secondary state were great for the most part, it being obvious whom those committed to their subject were and being dedicated to their students.

My DC have been through the system in the past 20 years and there were just so many teachers who were overwhelmed/didn't give a toss.

I completely disagree that excellent teachers are drawn to high achieving schools. Having worked in one I ran to a challenging comprehensive in relief. The pay is not always better on the cheaper end if independent schools. GDST, for example on state school wages. And all those hours at extra events.

I never felt respected but an addition thing to be bought. Another service. Much much prefer the appreciation I feel in a state school. Its swings and roundabouts I suppose but excellent teachers tend to go to challenging schools and turn them around.

Lots of coasting in private.

I haven’t found that excellent teachers are drawn to private either.

A belief in state over private can mean excellent teachers stay in state.

First I have never heard someone say teaching is better at private schools, so I can only assume op has a chip on her shoulder about something and knows very little about the system since it’s not something I’ve ever heard cited. All the other things yes, but singling out teaching? Nope.

It’s getting rather tedious that people are falling into the trap of continuously blaming private schools for doing better than the government. Covid is another great example.

Why isn’t there the same scrutiny of high performing state schools, where parents will often spend the equivalent of private school fees on property price uplift just to live in the catchment area. Then they’ll have a SAHP heavily invested in the school AND will privately tutor them. Yet that sort is advantage is considered acceptable because they’re not overtly paying for it through school fees?

There is enormous variation in the state sector.
I wish people would channel more of their anti-private school energies into improving underperforming schools by looking at what outperforming schools are doing with similar resources, rather than relentlessly trying to bring everyone else down to the standard of the lowest common denominator.

Just to qualify, I actually think that in many cases the teaching is EASIER in private schools so yes you probably get some good teachers drawn to that. But it’s probably BETTER in state schools because very often they have to do more with less.

@sst1234

It’s the children who are more disciplined in private schools that makes all the difference. State education is abused by a harmful minority or dysfunctional parents whose feral kids make learning impossible for other children. But of course, we must never hold parents accountable for bad parenting, no, no. That’s just not the done thing. It’s always the state that’s to blame, or the teachers, or if there’s no one else left to blame let’s call it a mental health issue.

Yes, because all children of abusive, dysfunctional parents are rogue and feral, yes?

Conifer,

Having been involved in both sectors for several years, it is far easier to budget a school on circa 20k/pupil/annum (plus substantial charitable donations) than on £5.5k/pupil/annum.

There are things that can be done to improve state schools but they are really struggling on the current money. If we believe in education as a priority, the state sector does need more money.

Private schools are better at conferring the teaching is better, as it’s part of the service.

But people in preps expect results when moving to next school which doesn’t always happen.

I’ve not encountered private that weeds out poor performing students but I’d be v unimpressed as a parent. Typically if you’re in you’re in in the London ones, as they test in entry and they have to stand by that. Does the weeding school test on entry?

Also I have wondered how that entry test, which often is to make sure no SEN, is fine. Especially for a four year old where it’s not academic standard really.

@larrygrylls please don’t be so dramatic. Anyone who has to regularly put 80 hours a week into a teaching job clearly isn’t doing it very well.

Yes far easier in private schools. Another thing I noticed is that ime students in state schools are much more vocal around issues, English teacher so discussions in most lessons. Had to squeeze for opinions in private schools. Sort of a passive process. Not sure why though.

@larrygrylls I’m not saying it doesn’t need more money, they absolutely do. I’m saying that we need to stop blaming private schools for contributing to a benchmark (along with outperforming state schools) which highlights the failures of many underperforming schools.

There are some absolutely amazing state schools, and many have made incredible turnarounds with very little additional resources, a school local to us has made the most tremendous achievements in recent years under new leadership. I went to a good state school of nearly 1,200 students across five year groups and many of my cohort went on to leave with fantastic results and great futures.

There are few state schools with deprived catchments that out perform.

Latest research shows socio economic intake and ofsted grading of a school are very closely linked. To anyone teaching in a state school, this is not a huge surprise. School can only do so much.

Top private schools are able to attract teachers with higher qualifications. If you look at the qualifications of teachers at my local indies compared to the local comp there are definitely more degrees which are directly relevant (e.g. maths degree as opposed to physical education for maths teacher), more masters degrees and PhDs too. That's not to say these teachers are 'better' in all situations but they are able to offer something to higher performing students which wouldn't be available at the local comprehensive. (My area is a grammar area though so this effect is more pronounced than it would be at a genuine comprehensive school).

The suggestion that sending your children private is comparable to freeing up an NHS bed by using private healthcare fundamentally misunderstands the role of state schools in society.

With few exceptions, the richest and most influential members of society often do not even consider state school for their child, and while they may not be uninterested in the system they are disinterested. It is easier to check out of the state education system than it is almost any other public sector service and this naturally pushes state education down the list of priorities when those people come to vote. If even a few of these families considered state education it would force government to rethink their approach to education radically.

@rhowton

We send our DD for the small class sizes, better ratios, children who are similar (language, manners etc tends to be better), no disruption, no SEN, no awful families (snobby, but I don't really care). Private schools are just better.

So should children with SEN be excluded from a private school??

I agree with you. The teachers don’t have to be qualified and they don’t have to follow the national curriculum. The main advantage is smaller class sizes and better behaviour. However, some private school pupils can look down on someone who ‘is only a teacher’.

Not for me, thanks.