To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

@Bubblesgun I agree and did the same. I was correcting a typo in my own post as MN still doesn't have a bloody edit button!

I don't feel ashamed of historic actions not conducted by myself and probably more educated than you (though I don't want to get into a degree waving contest) - totally accept that there were bad things associated with empire and all empires involve project of power within the standards of the time. Italians should feel proud of the achievements of the Roman empire, I should feel proud of the achievements of the British empire...

Did the empire support the introduction of infrastructure (railways, irrigation) and medicines that saved lives? Yes.

Could countries have done that themselves without having gone through colonisation? We'll never know now, but I suspect the answer is yes. The subconscious attitude of the coloniser (these countries needed us) shines through, even now.

What on Earth is one to vote for?
You are comparing Tuesday to a piece of string.
It is the British Empire we are spotlighting at the moment and the heinous crimes therein committed.
Cruelty and oppression is notsuddenly gained with hindsight. AT THE TIME the insitution ofGovernmenet and Monarchy KNEW about it, they knew all was cruel and vile facts of human lives lost, oppression and sadism. Queen Victoria simply saw such facts as a by product of her massive bid for power.
If you think about, she was disgusting and inhumane, a tyrant not a hero.
If they did not think such acts were inhumane, why did they suppress and continue to suppress the true facts? The massacres, the bloodshed?
I think you need to stop being a denier.

I agree the romanticism of the British Indian relationship during the empire completely hazes over what really happened and how India was raped and pillaged literally and metaphorically by first the east India trading company and then ‘Great’ Britain. The Indian lives lost in the world wars is abominable and rarely discussed. The book Inglorious Empire really enlightening my Empire thinking.

It's all ok though because railways were built

You are comparing Tuesday to a piece of string.

Did you make this up? I like it.

@user1471500037

I’m proud of the Empire - a small country built one of the largest empires the world has ever seen, operated to or better than the moral standards of the time, spread technological, medical knowledge throughout the world - used the Empire to fight and win against numerous opponents (Hitler, Napoleon, tin pot dictators) who would have killed many millions and taken history on an even darker path. Plus when the time came, we gave it up without too much angst and our common law, language, sports and culture act as a bedrock for those societies today. Bad things happen but so do good things and the Empire was (overall) a force for global good in its day

I really hope this is a piss-take, because if it's not, you are seriously deluded and lacking in education.

Empire was (overall) a force for global good in its day

The benefits of the British empire only went to (a subset of) the British. The colonised were murdered, starved and impoverished, cultures eradicated, resources stripped and exploited and generally left in politically and economically unstable circumstances (e.g. partition) that ensured it was difficult for them to prosper post-empire.

Plus when the time came, we gave it up without too much angst

Except for the fact that most of the colonised had to fight and rebel in order to achieve independence.

our common law, language, sports and culture act as a bedrock for those societies today.

Because of the hard work put in by the empire in eradicating local culture, language and legal systems.

@phoenixrosehere

I don’t think anyone is asking people to feel guilty for the atrocities of the past, but to acknowledge both its positive and negative impacts (then and today) on others, learn from it and do better.

No I agree, I don’t feel guilty or ashamed, it wasn’t me, it wasn’t done in my name and seeing as my ancestry is Irish farmers I don’t even think I can lay any blame with them. However I am British and I am Scottish and i love this part of me but it’s still important to fully understand the past so as not to make the same mistakes in the future.

It helps, I think, to run a thought experiment.

Suppose that Nigeria had conquered and run the UK for 70 years.

Suppose they had imposed their laws, their language, their religion.

Suppose that when they'd left they had carved the country up: making Devon plus Cornwall a country, lumping Scotland in with Northern Ireland, and Southern Ireland in with France. Suppose that becuase of this carving-up we had dealt with endless wars.

Suppose also that many of the Nigerians who did this were kind, clever and genuinely believed they were doing the right thing.

Suppose one of their leading poets talked about empire being the 'Black Man's burden' and the people of the British Isles as 'new-caught, sullen peoples/Half devil and half child'.

How do you think you'd feel about the Nigerian empire?

@TheWho67

So, most people disagree with the British Empire but want to remain in the EU? So it was wrong of Britain to want to control other countries but totally acceptable to be controlled by the EU?

This has to be one of the stupidest comments I have read on here. The UK joined the EU willingly, it did not invade the UK. The UK had a voice inside the EU, it was not a subject of the EU. Your comparison is shockingly ignorant.

@Cadent

I agree the romanticism of the British Indian relationship during the empire completely hazes over what really happened and how India was raped and pillaged literally and metaphorically by first the east India trading company and then ‘Great’ Britain. The Indian lives lost in the world wars is abominable and rarely discussed. The book Inglorious Empire really enlightening my Empire thinking.

It's all ok though because railways were built

Yes I always hear about how great the Empire was for building railways. Do you think the British developed the railways to help India or its people? they were used to more easily transport Indian resources back to Britain! British shareholders also made huge amounts of money by investing in the railways, and that too from Indian taxes.

The Germans I’ve met are very proud of their country, they are able to acknowledge their past but still take pride in the nation that Germany is today and their language and culture. With the UK you have the left who want to wallow in self loathing for historical atrocities and then you have the right who are in denial. It’s better just to accept that UK has a chequered past. From invasions and massacres on our own soil to world domination. However I’m proud of all the good things ordinary Britains have done for humanity from vaccines that have saved millions of lives to the World Wide Web.

The British Empire ... seriously. This isn't 1865.

@user1471500037

I don't feel ashamed of historic actions not conducted by myself and probably more educated than you (though I don't want to get into a degree waving contest) - totally accept that there were bad things associated with empire and all empires involve project of power within the standards of the time. Italians should feel proud of the achievements of the Roman empire, I should feel proud of the achievements of the British empire...

How can you say you are probably more educated than me when you have no idea who I am. Also it would be more of a PhD waving competition!

Your post was romanticised and ignorant of the pain imperialism cost, particularly to India and Ireland. Have a read of Shashi Tharoors argument, you may have education but maybe not all of the facts.

@TheWho67 - So, most people disagree with the British Empire but want to remain in the EU? So it was wrong of Britain to want to control other countries but totally acceptable to be controlled by the EU?

Really? You are comparing armed colonisation to the EU? The EU is a partnership based on co-operation. There is no EU control as each member has a say in the rules and governance. Your argument is similar to saying Devon should not be controlled by Britain.

@contrmary That's nonsense. What makes slavery "wrong"? It's been an intrinsic part of human history, from prehistoric times until the modern day. The USA, the Aztecs, the Irish, the Picts, the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Africans - all civilisations have had slaves. It's only in the past couple of hundred years that we've decided to start banning them. Even today, 1 in 200 people is a slave. Slavery is only "wrong" because the current fashion is to decide it is wrong. In a few hundred or thousand years it will almost certainly become common again, because it is a natural instinct. It's not just humans either, in the animal kingdom various species (eg ants) enslave others of their species.

How do you think the slaves felt about it? Are you front of the queue volunteering to be a slave, I mean it is natural and only a fashion that we think it is wrong so I'm sure you'd be fine with it.

@Cadent

I agree the romanticism of the British Indian relationship during the empire completely hazes over what really happened and how India was raped and pillaged literally and metaphorically by first the east India trading company and then ‘Great’ Britain. The Indian lives lost in the world wars is abominable and rarely discussed. The book Inglorious Empire really enlightening my Empire thinking.

It's all ok though because railways were built

Damn, I forgot that 🤦🏻‍♀️ I will keep quiet now.

As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

I don't think it's asking you to atone, feel guilty or be ashamed. I think we are being asked to recognise the facts, understand that the history of the British Empire is very dark in places rather than an endless take of glory, and recognise the ways in which Britons have benefitted, and in some ways still do benefit, from an Empire which caused immense harm and destruction to countries and peoples across the planet. I think it's important to have an understanding of history which is accurate.

Many Britons seem genuinely surprised by negative feelings towards this country and its people. A better understanding of our history and how we are perceived in relation to it, and in relation to the widespread lack of recognition that at times we were indeed the baddies on a spectacular scale, would help with that. Other countries do a much better job of acknowledging past wrongs and insisting on their people having an accurate understanding of them so the same mistakes are less likely to be made again.

@Cadent don’t forget cricket

@orinocosfavoritecake
Isn't your thought experiment similar to what the Romans did in Britain? I'm sure most stories of invasion and empire are similar. Do I think badly of the Italians and think that the Romans did nothing good for Britain at all? No.

One thing I find ironic when this comes up (not necessarily here)- the same people who want to dissociate themselves from anything Britain did in the past which is shameful, and shout about how they have nothing to feel guilty about because they weren't even alive then, seem very happy to associate themselves with past British glory and shout about how proud they are of what "we" did before they were even born...

Does anyone care?

These things might have happened years ago but how many still alive today could have altered anything.

Like Germany and it starting 2 World Wars. It is in the past.

Are young British and German people to go around saying Mea Culpa for the whole of their lives because some people in their countries history acted abhorrently in the name of the country for the next 500 years.

Is their a time limit on how long we need to hang our head in shame if we don’t consider other Empire building atrocities.

@stairway
The Germans I’ve met are very proud of their country, they are able to acknowledge their past but still take pride in the nation that Germany is today and their language and culture. With the UK you have the left who want to wallow in self loathing for historical atrocities and then you have the right who are in denial. It’s better just to accept that UK has a chequered past. From invasions and massacres on our own soil to world domination. However I’m proud of all the good things ordinary Britains have done for humanity from vaccines that have saved millions of lives to the World Wide Web
Your post articulates much of what I'm trying to get across. We can have a general pride in our country and acknowledge the awful things we have done at the same time. Even our history with slavery is mixed as whilst we undoubtedly played a terrible role in helping it grow and profited tremendously from it, we also fought to abolish it when other countries were persisting.

Are you aware that Scotland joined the United Kingdom on the promise of the riches of the spoil in India. Have a look at the Scottish and Indian historical relations, have look at Glasgow Jamaican relations. This was not an English disease Scotland were completely complicit in ‘Empire’ building.
What an oddly phrased post.
The 1707 Acts of Union declared that the kingdoms of England and Scotland were "United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain".[36][37][note 13] The term "United Kingdom" has occasionally been used as a description for the former kingdom of Great Britain, although its official name from 1707 to 1800 was simply "Great Britain".[38][39][40][41] The Acts of Union 1800 united the kingdom of Great Britain and the kingdom of Ireland in 1801, forming the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Following the partition of Ireland and the independence of the Irish Free State in 1922, which left Northern Ireland as the only part of the island of Ireland within the United Kingdom, the name was changed to the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".[42
From Wikipedia
The Union of the Crowns was hastened by terrible economic hardship in Scotland known as the 'Seven Ill Years' and the disastrous Darien Scheme.
I am Scottish and know that many Scots made their fortunes through the British Empire. I neither see the Empire as a 'disease' nor am I ashamed of it. I'm not responsible for the actions of others.

You brought up the need to get educated! My point is is that there was a lot of benefits and things to be proud of that empire made as well as atrocities that should be acknowledged - but you don't get the true picture if you focus on the bad things...