To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

just focus on the bad things

Gosh, Brexit seems to have unleashed a spate of hysterical underthinking about British sovereignty, its tragic enchainment by Evil Brussels and the glories it will attain again once it tears up an international treaty it ratified a few months ago and drives a giant, mendacious Boris Bus through the GFA.

I have no idea what the Romans did to my family, we might have benefitted we might have suffered, ancient history.

My husband knows the name of the ancestor who travelled to the new world, he knows the name of his grandson who took over the plantation, unfortunately he doesn't know the name of the slave who that grandson had a child with, a child he never freed, he knows that the slave who was exploited and probably raped by the plantation owner was taken to another country as a slave and died that way.

So anything the Romans did to my ancestors is a mystery to me, what happened to his great great (great I think) grandmother feels much more personal to my husband. He has seen photos of the plantation, the house where the white man lived and the slave huts where she lived with her child. I do see what the British Empire did to his family as different to what the Romans might or might not have done to my family.

[quote Bumpitybumper]@orinocosfavoritecake
Isn't your thought experiment similar to what the Romans did in Britain? I'm sure most stories of invasion and empire are similar. Do I think badly of the Italians and think that the Romans did nothing good for Britain at all? No.[/quote]
'What have the Romans ever done for us?' is a phrase that feels like it's been hovering over this thread?

Most of the effects of Roman colonisation were lost once they left. You don't live with them daily. The UK faces zero consequences from its time as part of the Roman Empire other than possibly the costs of maintaining historic sites.

@user1471500037

You brought up the need to get educated! My point is is that there was a lot of benefits and things to be proud of that empire made as well as atrocities that should be acknowledged - but you don't get the true picture if you focus on the bad things...

Still waiting for someone to point out all these “lots of benefits and things to be proud of”. Do tell.

I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine...The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

As previously pointed out the famine in Ireland was a false famine. We produced plenty of food we just weren't allowed to access it, it was exported under armed guard. People were deported to Australia for stealing a loaf of bread.

Earlier this year your Home Secretary Priti Patel suggested using food shortages to pressurise Ireland in the Brexit negotiations.

Do you understand the visceral reaction that Irish people have to Ms Patel's threat? Do you understand that for the Irish, and for many others around the world, the UK is the ultimate villain? And that to an outsider looking in, with the ridiculous Brexit "negotiations" going on at present, it appears that the mindset of your political rulers hasn't changed that much in 150 years? Rule Brittania, Brittania waives the rules.

YANBU
I can't be bothered to wade through the vitriol you have received (after reading page 1). To those who say that citing previous empires of more distant age is unreasonable, I suggest you read up on the Belgian Congo for a more modern example (stopped being a Belgian colony in 1960 after some extremely gory bloodshed on the part of the Belgians towards the end) - this is in my living memory.

A quick watch OP, from 45 seconds in.

@phoenixrosehere

I don’t think anyone is asking people to feel guilty for the atrocities of the past, but to acknowledge both its positive and negative impacts (then and today) on others, learn from it and do better.

The most sensible post on here.

@Dailyhandtowelwash
The UK faces zero consequences from its time as part of the Roman Empire other than possibly the costs of maintaining historic sites
Of course they left a legacy in the UK. The economic and cultural impact may have reduced over time, but it was real. They also made long term changes to our infrastructure and legal system.

[quote Bumpitybumper]@Dailyhandtowelwash
The UK faces zero consequences from its time as part of the Roman Empire other than possibly the costs of maintaining historic sites
Of course they left a legacy in the UK. The economic and cultural impact may have reduced over time, but it was real. They also made long term changes to our infrastructure and legal system.[/quote]
Yes, of course the Romans influenced our systems. That is not what I was referring to. None of the legacy from almost two thousand years ago has any effect on our lives in the way that the Nigerian Empire example cited above has. It’s disingenuous in the extreme to claim the two are comparable. These threads are always very disingenuous though.

I also don't support this arbitrary chronological cut-off where historical acts performed before a certain time don't count and thus the relics of that empire or era can remain intact whereas those performed after a certain time must be destroyed immediately.

It's human nature to have less emotional attachment for things long ago that aren't directly impacting our lives any longer. That's why the Islamic empires are treated as an academic past in most of Kazakhstan, but not in Iran. It's why the British empires are treated as an academic past in the US, but not in India or Kenya.

Many things from the Ancient Egyptian empires were destroyed, mostly by other Egyptians who came after then some more by colonizing forces from elsewhere. Many things from Ancient Rome were destroyed. They weren't kept in stasis. Most of what they made is long gone.

We keep things and have statues to people that have value to us. Why keep something around just because someone else put it up?

Humans knock things down and build on top of them, we've been doing it for millennia, just as the Earth itself does. The British Empire is not immune to this. There are plenty of ways to keep historical records and teach history other than statues and most just want to rename rather than destroy buildings.

"Cancel culture" is good at riling people up and creating binaries (while arguing against them...), but other than toppling a few statues and some nasty online arguments, what has it actually done? It can be annoying and much of it - on either side - can argueable be seen as a waste of energy, but outside of a few internet bubbles, there is plenty of nuanced discussions happening. It's not like we're the first people to do this kind of shite, it's just more instantaneous now.

@Acrackineverything
Do you understand that for the Irish, and for many others around the world, the UK is the ultimate villain?
It's interesting that you use the current tense. For how long will the UK be the "ultimate villain"? Centuries, millennia, forever? What is the "UK" anyway? The common British peasant was hardly living their best life in the 19th century and would have had no influence over foreign policy. So we are basically talking about a ruling elite who are long dead. Yet a century and a half later, you are willing to characterise a country of over 70 million people as the "ultimate villain".

@derxa a good old Wikipedia try

www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/legislativescrutiny/act-of-union-1707/overview/union-between-scotland-and-england/

www.thenational.scot/politics/15486882.cat-boyd-its-about-time-scotland-confronted-its-own-racist-colonial-past/

www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/acts_of_union_01.shtml

@orinocosfavoritecake

It helps, I think, to run a thought experiment.

Suppose that Nigeria had conquered and run the UK for 70 years.

Suppose they had imposed their laws, their language, their religion.

Suppose that when they'd left they had carved the country up: making Devon plus Cornwall a country, lumping Scotland in with Northern Ireland, and Southern Ireland in with France. Suppose that becuase of this carving-up we had dealt with endless wars.

Suppose also that many of the Nigerians who did this were kind, clever and genuinely believed they were doing the right thing.

Suppose one of their leading poets talked about empire being the 'Black Man's burden' and the people of the British Isles as 'new-caught, sullen peoples/Half devil and half child'.

How do you think you'd feel about the Nigerian empire?

Good analogy. I think those harking back to the days of the 'Empah' assume that they would not be one of the subjugated continents.

'New caught, sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child'

Kipling.. ''The White man's burden''

If the boot was on the other foot re Colonialism it would surely change anyone's mind.

Sorry OP you're not going to get much support here. Didn't you know Britain is the source of all evil. We need to reserve our colonial thoughts to meeting in our own town centres protesting loudly and trashing the place then going home. Those interested will be saying yeah we made our point the rest will be wondering what the point was and paying the bill to clear up the mess.

Bumpitybumper eh.....because now they're talking about ignoring a race treaty that will affect Ireland so ultimate villain isn't just past tense.

@Dailyhandtowelwash
Yes, of course the Romans influenced our systems. That is not what I was referring to. None of the legacy from almost two thousand years ago has any effect on our lives in the way that the Nigerian Empire example cited above has. It’s disingenuous in the extreme to claim the two are comparable. These threads are always very disingenuous though.
But isn't the only difference time? I imagine in your example that over 2000 years the influence of Nigeria invading the UK wouldn't necessarily have an obvious effect on the daily lives of the average British person. The elements that we retain would be so interwoven into our culture and economy that we would struggle to know how the UK would have developed if it wasn't for the invasion and other major events would happen to a country that would bring about change.

I would also suggest that the picture would become even more complex if we were to see certain advancements whilst Nigeria ruled over the UK. Say if they introduced us to a cure for cancer that saved lots of lives. This wouldn't eradicate the harm and damage done, but it could be identified as a beneficial development for the UK.

@Bumpitybumper - To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

Can I ask for a clarification of your thread title? Why are you wary? Or did you mean weary?

I am not English but it has always seemed odd to me that the British are expected to flog themselves for things their far ancestors did, and yet the Germans are not for things their grandparents did.

I personally don’t think anyone should have to ‘stone’ for anything that they personally haven’t done. I am black and have done very well for myself in the Uk, in fact I would say it is 100% the most tolerant country I have lived in and the safest.

It’s only a minority of hand wringing white women who seem to hate all other white (especially poor) people and black people determined to blame their bad choices now on something that speed 100 years ago that are demanding this I’ve noticed.

ewsyoucanuse

“This current trend of 'revisionist history' is a new arena of ignorance. ‘

Is it revisionist to tell the truth? 40 years ago I had NO idea of the British part in slavery - it was pinned on the Americans. British slave ships and sugar plantations didn’t get a mention.
My mother’s generation were taught the history of the British Empire as a source of pride - because half the facts were missing. It’s not revisionist to look at a subject truthfully.“

Less than 40 years ago there was a children’s drama on UK TV about a slave boy in England, I can remember it, although not the name, so it was talked about

We just choose to remember, or are able to remember selected things
Roots on TV was also a massive drama TV programme, and well talked about

@QueenofAsgard

I've never felt so ashamed to be British.

See this, I don't get. Are you ashamed of every questionable deed committed by a British person? Where does it end. I'm not ashamed to be British, just I am not proud to be British. It's just who I am. It's a random occurrence. I happened to be born on this stretch of land and not another. Other people's shit behaviour is not mine to carry or make amends for.

QueenofAsgard

I''m the same as you - I was born here but my ancestors certainly aren't 100% British - in fact I have direct French/German ancestry on one side and am quarter Welsh on the other side.

I'm not going to be ashamed to be British by just having a British passport but there's no way am I going to hang my head in shame and feel I have to atone to the Irish etc for everything the British have done, simply because I was born here. My stepfather is a prime example, he's Irish and for years has cherrypicked what suits him, working for UK civil service, supporting English World Cup Team etc - but when he wants to get angry usually at family get togethers about the British and what they did to the Irish etc it seems very biased and personal.

Maybe I should find out more of my one quarter Welsh history so I can quote that oppression back chapter and verse at him next time!

No one here will agree on anything to be honest, and this is just a thread to enrage

@Midlifelights

I think it’s the superiority from the days of Empire that caused Brexit. People have some warped idea that the UK is special and shouldn’t be ‘controlled’ by the EU etc etc. This ‘we won the war’ bullshit.

This with bells on.

@Bumpitybumper - Say if they introduced us to a cure for cancer that saved lots of lives.

Can you please specify some of the so called benefits the British empire brought to the colonised? You keep claiming they brought benefits to the local populace but haven't yet articulated any. And no, railways don't count. They were used mainly as a tool to subjugate and exploit.

If you are going to make claims of this nature, it is reasonable to expect you would have a few examples.