To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

I can assure you that UK children have not been taught the order of monarchs for many, many years. Sometimes I think it would be a good idea. People have a very poor idea of the timeline of British History.

I know! I think it's interesting! Anyway, younger colleagues shoot me down and say it's not. We are teaching a unit on Benin (which is really great) and when I ask them who was the UK monarch at the time, they have no idea....

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Is this for real?

@notdaddycool - frankly the countries we colonised would have been got by a European power and relatively speaking they are lucky it was us not say the Belgians, look what Leopold did in the Congo.

And this is exactly the sort of attitude that pisses off those of us in countries that suffered at the hands of British colonialism.

The men and women who represent us in parliament were mostly born with silver spoons in their mouths, have never known desperation or hunger and think they can tell those who have what their lives ought to be like

I think this is why we had Gordon Brown calling a woman a bigot because he just didn’t even consider her questions on the countries debts and uncontrolled immigration as legitimate.
This is why we have BREXIT. Those in power are so far removed from how the majority of people live their lives and the problems they experience that they don’t even consider how things might affect people who are not in their circle of friends and colleagues.

This is why Corbyn lost so spectacularly. Outside the echo chamber the rest of the UK was looking on in horror at the manifesto.

I thought Brexit voters weren't idiots and racists?
"Why are people so mean about the British Empire?" Seriously? Are you taking the piss?

The lady said where are they flocking from (the immigrants) and Gordon Brown misheard.

@Hopoindown31

Erm, there's pretty strong feelings about the British Empire and Crown aired by Maori (the indigenous ethnic minority of New Zealand), in the Waitangi Tribunal, and on Waitangi Day. A previous Prime Minister of New Zealand, as the representative of the Crown on the Waitangi Marae at a Waitangi Day hui was reduced to tears. . .

Well, we did basically lie to them by writing a different treaty in Maori than in English.

Of course, far from the most terrible thing we did.

Well, to be fair, Hobson was suffering badly with a head cold or flu at the time of translation, and had barely a year of te reo under his belt. . . and I think did it in roughly 24 hours?

I mean, who knew the difference between kawanatanga and sovereignty was such a huge deal, right?!

Today marks 100 years since the sacking of Balbriggan (Ireland) by British forces. 100 years is not a long time at all really. Bit of a difference between that and the impact of the Mongol Empire.

Here's a little help for you. Bit Oldie but goodie.

And this one

There are 23 pages but I don't think I'll be able to read it today so just wanted to add a comment that addressed the OP itself, so sorry if this seems very out of context.

What I find interesting about these points of view is the line of thinking that equates personal guilt with the past. Is it that you feel uncomfortable it is being brought up at all and can't deal with that? Is it that you are being made to feel uncomfortable because you feel that those movements such as BLM contradict your own outlooks and views? Because I am white and certainly do not feel it is either necessary or right to "remember the good things" about previous time periods or atrocities as some kind of counter point to movements such as BLM. I understand things exist in the context of the time they came from, I don't necessarily see that as an excuse and I certainly do not see it as an excuse to hold this events or people in any sort of esteem based solely on the fact that their actions were common, legal or acceptable in their time.

I'm not good at articulating it, but I do tend to feel there is a correlation between people who do say things like the OP says and being a bit either genuinely racist or at least passively indifferent to the suffering of proponents of movements like BLM. I also feel there are a lot of people in the world who jump to discredit BLM and the sort because they "don't feel [systemic] racism is real" or that it somehow isn't relevant to them as white people or to the society they belong to.

It's hard to frame in words but I definitely feel that there is a huge lack of understanding about racism and how historical symbols and their glorification or admiration can still have real, modern connotations and that is not "erasing history" to, for example, remove statues of celebrated figures if their actions are a representation of oppression, violence or other largely negative influences. This lack of understanding also extends to not understanding the extent of what racism and prejudice actually is. Not being a literal KKK supporter does not necessarily mean you are not racist, or at least not part of the problem. No individual can or should be tasked with ending racism, the multitudes of micro or every day racism is very real and being passively non racist is not enough, especially in the world we live in today.

Sorry when I say hard to frame in words, I mean hard for me

Well, to be fair, Hobson was suffering badly with a head cold or flu at the time of translation, and had barely a year of te reo under his belt. . . and I think did it in roughly 24 hours?

We see that spirit continuing with the British Civil Service nowadays, largely well-educated amateurs lacking proper preparation and doing things in a rush.

I mean, who knew the difference between kawanatanga and sovereignty was such a huge deal, right?!

I know, and it was just a total coincidence that it happened to favour the British, right?

I’m not sure I follow your logic. The idea that we should only teach the issues with the British Empire if we also teach about problems in other empires is just a bit strange. The curriculum can’t cover everything and the main focus of the curriculum in England is on British history. The reason the British empire features so heavily should be obvious. Of course it should be contextualised but the idea that it was just a different time and people didn’t know what they were doing was wrong is just not correct. As a history teacher my job isn’t to teach simple but incorrect narratives that help British people not to feel guilty about the empire. Incidentally, I don’t think we should feel guilty about it. It’s not like we had any say in something that happened before we were born. However, we do have a duty to acknowledge the damage it did and the extent to which our country still benefits from its legacy today. Shying away from the truth because it’s uncomfortable is not right. I also don’t agree with celebrating “positive” aspects of the empire that colonised peoples neither asked for nor wanted and which they more than paid the price for.

This

@Hopoindown31

Well, to be fair, Hobson was suffering badly with a head cold or flu at the time of translation, and had barely a year of te reo under his belt. . . and I think did it in roughly 24 hours?

We see that spirit continuing with the British Civil Service nowadays, largely well-educated amateurs lacking proper preparation and doing things in a rush.

I mean, who knew the difference between kawanatanga and sovereignty was such a huge deal, right?!

I know, and it was just a total coincidence that it happened to favour the British, right?

I reckon you and I could have a very nice natter over a large sav' blanc. . .

I wonder what difference it would have made if Colenso had done the translation? Of course - he was French. . .

Sorry to keep posting but I'm really interested in these view points. I'm half way through a history degree bit sadly my empire section is not until the last year.

I do find it interesting of the very common argument of not prescribing modern values to past times. But, where does the line need to be drawn, for this to be a valid argument? Even in antiquity and much further back people understood the concept And is it ever a valid argument if those historical events caused harm that still is relevant in modern times? What's the justification of defending it? Nationalism? Or an actual valid reason? Because things like "at least it was us and not the Belgians" don't seem like a relevant or morally just argument for either the actions at the time, nor their defence in the modern day.

I reckon you and I could have a very nice natter over a large sav' blanc. . .

Only if it is Marlborough's finest.

I wonder what difference it would have made if Colenso had done the translation? Of course - he was French. . .

Thought he was Cornish?

Concept of harm and injustice*

William Colenso, and you are so right!

(How about Awatere Triple Bank, or Jules Taylor, re the sav' blanc?)

So much embarrassing nonsense being spouted on here to justify the Empire. Really shocking that people even think like this.

I understand the defensiveness. As I've previously said, I've been there. Your nationality and your culture is a huge part of your identity. It's a bit like how, you might talk smack about your own family, but the minute an outsider does, boy howdy, you're united in the face of the enemy!

If we acknowledge atrocities committed during the empire, and agree to read up on history - what else are we Brits to do? People want their pound of flesh but in what form? What now?
I am not an MP, Cressida Dick, a history teacher etc just a lay person so what is wanted?

@Straven123 - People want their pound of flesh but in what form?

Nobody is looking for a pound of flesh. Read through some of the comments here and you'll see what annoys those of us in former colonies.

People referring to the famine as the potato famine, people saying it would have been worse under a different coloniser, people saying that spreading the English language was a plus, the what-aboutery referring to other colonisers or the poor in Britain etc.

A simple recognition that the empire was horrific for the colonised and that it has had hugely negative effects that are still impacting us today (e.g. partition in Ireland and India).

I certainly don't blame current brits for the sins of the empire. However, I do have disdain for those who refuse to recognise what the empire actually was and who glorify it.

Well, as I pointed out, in NZ, it's the New Zealand Government, as the representative of the British Crown, that is paying reparations, and making apologies. Not the Brits.

Pound of flesh? Really?

No, but maybe just understand that there is an alternative perspective of the British Empire, and how it impacted on the colonies, and that informs the perspective of many of those affected - and of course how they perceive Britain going forward. Which could be pertinent when it comes to future treaties etc, regarding trade, defense alliances, that sort of thing. And I think that to a degree, the allegiance and loyalty of former colonies has been taken for granted by some of those in power, to an extent that is not warranted.