To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

Of course other empires did this too, but the British empire is what is being discussed in this country and "they did it too" is a pathetic defence.
It's not a defence it's facts and it was clear imv during the statue bashing/removal time that many people had no clue about anything except the cruel British colonials.
I asked up thread what countries hadn't been colonised and I don't think anyone answered it. I can't think of any.

People's knowledge of history is pretty poor (there's an awful lot of history out there) and they have no idea how not to judge by today's standards the events of the past.

I agree that more education is needed and an honest description of colonialism and what happened- but how and from where I don't know, - and agree that more empathy is needed to those who suffered. But I wouldn't want to have to listen to someone blasting me with a list of British Imperial cruelties (as people do on this type of thread) Why would I, I can be non racist, inclusive, intelligent and educated without that thanks.

You won't educate people like that because they won't want to listen.

I asked up thread what countries hadn't been colonised and I don't think anyone answered it. I can't think of any.

Here's a list.

The list (as opposed to the narrative) in that link doesn't make sense

For example, it includes India in the list of countries that were never colonised

and USA, Zimbabwe, Ireland, NZ, Australia, Namibia, Algeria, to name a few that have been mentioned on this thread....

If you think people from ethnic minorities live their lives feeling resentful about the empire, then you are seriously deluded.

Erm, there's pretty strong feelings about the British Empire and Crown aired by Maori (the indigenous ethnic minority of New Zealand), in the Waitangi Tribunal, and on Waitangi Day. A previous Prime Minister of New Zealand, as the representative of the Crown on the Waitangi Marae at a Waitangi Day hui was reduced to tears. . .

I should have read it

I just glanced as I was rushing.

The list at the bottom is nonsense, but the text at the top does give examples of countries not colonised.

It's not a defence it's facts and it was clear imv during the statue bashing/removal time that many people had no clue about anything except the cruel British colonials.

It may be a fact, but it is also used as a defence. It's a bit disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

And this is Britain. We only really have statues of British colonial types in this country. Did you expect people to be protesting in London or Manchester about statues that are in e.g. France or the Netherlands?

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable - The list at the bottom is nonsense, but the text at the top does give examples of countries not colonised.

Yeah. I had read the text. It was the list I didn't read.

@diggadoo - very eloquently put.

You won't educate people like that because they won't want to listen

That is such a depressing statement, even more so because it's true !

'We still have a ruling class. The men and women who represent us in parliament were mostly born with silver spoons in their mouths, have never known desperation or hunger and think they can tell those who have what their lives ought to be like. Many of those in the ruling class or otherwise in the upper echelons of British society would drag us back to the days of the empire with a song in their hearts, ejaculating all the way to the bank.'

'Ejaculating all the way to the bank' .

Yes, those in positions of power have usually had privileged upbringings. We do have a very classist society but that goes for all professions, I've never met a hospital consultant or a lawyer who don't sound just like the Westminster bunch.

Suggesting anyone would 'drag us back to the days of the empire with a song in their heart' is a bit of a stretch and rather hysterical sounding tbh.

Suggesting anyone would 'drag us back to the days of the empire with a song in their heart' is a bit of a stretch and rather hysterical sounding tbh.

JRM?

The voices raised in a rousing chorus of Rule Britannia were the upper classes

Nice rhetoric, but not entirely true. Yes upper classes sang it, but not just them alone. I suppose you are just going to ignore the fact that the Royal Navy and Army personnel- working class enlisted- sang it for centuries as well? That it was played at the surrender of Japanese in 1945 when WWII finally ended for good? It wasn’t an upper class song that only Eton boys knew. It was national.

@prettybird

The list (as opposed to the narrative) in that link doesn't make sense

For example, it includes India in the list of countries that were never colonised

and USA, Zimbabwe, Ireland, NZ, Australia, Namibia, Algeria, to name a few that have been mentioned on this thread....

The link says “Very few countries have never been either a colonizing power or become colonized. They include Saudi Arabia, Iran, Thailand, China, Afghanistan, Nepal, Bhutan, and Ethiopia.”

False statement. Every country had at one time been colonised and/or a coloniser.

Saudi Arabia- colonised by the ancient Egyptians, North African berbers, Hyksos, and Islamic and Ottoman Empires

Iran- sent out and had waves and waves of colonising invaders all through ancient times to almost modern times (1800s). From akkadians to Sumerians, to Hittites, to Persians, to Romans to Ottomans.

Thailand- Was formed by migrating Tai colonisers from Nanchao (now Mainland China) who then formed their own kingdom.

China- colonised and taken over-by the Mongols for one. And invaded and colonised much of Central Asia, how do you think it is so big? Many smaller kingdoms were simply swallowed up. Tibet was invaded by and ruled by China for centuries. Taiwan was colonised by China in the 1600s before given to Japan in a treaty.

Afghanistan-colonised and ruled by the Persians, by Alexander the Great. Invaded and ruled Pakistan for a few centuries as its own empire of Bactria. Bactria, then fell to the Mauryan Empure out of India and Afghanistan was colonised again, gaining Hinduism and bhuddism. Stayed colonised under other Indo empires, until finally independent and formed their own Kushan empure during which Afghanistan then colonised much of India and east even into China. This lasted until we have an Iranian Empire Sassanids invading and colonising. They lasted until the Islamic Empire invaded.

Nepal- or Gorkha kingdom was originally a medieval colony of Brahmin Indians moving away from Muslim advances from the west. They invaded and conquered the area and set up Nepal. Ruling until the Shah dynasty was abolished in 2008.

Bhutan- invaded and colonised both by Tibet, the Mongols in its history and in the 1770s it invaded and colonised the kingdom of Koch Bihar. The rulers of Koch Bihar asked the British for help who managed to oust Bhutan back to their original borders and protect them for next hundred years.

Ethiopia- invaded and colonised Sudan (known as Kush) and Yemen during its Aksumite Empire days. Their empire was so large, it bordered Roman controlled Egypt.

Wow, I'm i pressed.
I was going to say that parts of China were definitely overrun cruelly by Japan - the Chinese were told at the 2008 Olympics to be respectful and not boo their teams when they competed.

@diggadoo
Upthread someone stated that Rule Britannia dates from the Napoleonic Wars, I think it was, to encourage patriotism. So not originally about colonialism.

You would hope an empire wouldn’t happen today but frankly the countries we colonised would have been got by a European power and relatively speaking they are lucky it was us not say the Belgians, look what Leopold did in the Congo. They were of their time and it’s better we learn from it than rewrite history.

I have taught History in state schools for almost 37 years. In all that time we have taught about the British Empire in an honest way, including atrocities, and have never glorified it. We have taught about Ireland, including the problems caused by the British. I am on a History teachers forum and contribute to a magazine. I have no idea why or how some people have been taught to glorify the empire or colonialism. A sensible and measured post. I find it very strange that I knew about British colonialism and slavery as a young teenager given the tone on this thread.
There was nothing special about my education in a Scottish High school

And I'm over 60.

Erm, there's pretty strong feelings about the British Empire and Crown aired by Maori (the indigenous ethnic minority of New Zealand), in the Waitangi Tribunal, and on Waitangi Day. A previous Prime Minister of New Zealand, as the representative of the Crown on the Waitangi Marae at a Waitangi Day hui was reduced to tears. . .

Well, we did basically lie to them by writing a different treaty in Maori than in English.

Of course, far from the most terrible thing we did.

Of course everyone sang Rule Britannia, in the same way that almost everyone sang hymns in school. I don't remember singing it at school

What part of the British Empire should I be looking holistically at?

The part that genocided my ancestors, the part that forced them onto reserves and beat their language and culture out of them? The part that stole their children and threw them into reservation schools? The governors who put prices on their heads?

Please, tell me what I'm supposed to look at fondly?

@derxa - thank you! I have to say, in my experience, History teachers are usually lefties and will ensure that such issues are dealt with! I was teaching the Irish Question back in the early 80s. Every year teaching the British Empire has included Massacre at Amritsar among other atrocities and general mistreatment of indigenous peoples. elsewhere. I've taught in many schools!

@newsyoucanuse - I can assure you that UK children have not been taught the order of monarchs for many, many years.
Have a look at KS3 books commonly used, and GCSE and A level topics. You may be surprised.