To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

@Brefugee - You still haven't understood the point which is that people in England know as much about that period of irish history to use only the term that isn't acceptable because they never hear any other term and they have zero idea beyond "the potato crop failed"

Please stop being so patronising. It's insulting. I understand exactly what you claim to have been doing. However, your post as it was written achieved nothing other than to reinforce to the ignorant that the Irish Potato Famine is the appropriate term. You stated: about as much as the English educate themselves about the exact causes and effects of the Irish Potato Famine and then carried on discussing Germany. Unless the reader knew the term was inappropriate, there was nothing in your post to suggest that it is exactly as insulting to that history as me being constantly told i live in a nation of Nazis.

The point - which you obviously didn't get in your haste to tell me not to do something - is that unless this is taught in schools those words are going to be used again and again and again. Something i suspect neither of us wants.

The point which you did not make, is that the term "Irish Potato Famine" is not an acceptable term. The point which you did make, is that the British are ignorant of the causes of the famine and assume it was poor agricultural practices. And yes, we are in agreement that it should be taught in schools.

My point, which you seem to be struggling with, is that unless it is pointed out to people that the term is unacceptable, they will never attempt to educate themselves.

I live in England and hear quips about Germans/Nazis, Japan/concentration camps often enough. Those situations were beyond horrific and shouldn't be forgotten but I don't think that the British empire is the only conquerors facing criticism

No they are not. Europe has got a awful past.

Oh get a grip, OP!!

Are you serious? You needn't judge anything by today's standards! Just read a history book or ask anyone from a colonised country. I'm in my 30's and lost relatives who dared to speak out against colonialism a few years before I was born. Hell, a good amount of my friends from other countries also have relatives that should be alive today but simply aren't as a consequence of the British empire murdering them. No matter how you look at it, going into someone's house and fighting/killing them in order to declare their house as your own is wrong. I've met a lot of undercover racists but I've only ever met a handful of people who openly declare the British empire did no wrong.

Are you really serious when you say you're shocked/surprised to hear negative things about your empire???????????

@Codexdivinchi

"White people have not got a good history. History that needs to learned by young white children"

Humans don't have a good history. When I read in the news of girls being dragged off buses and gang raped before being set on fire in India, and the country officially being named the worst country in the world to live as a woman...

White people are no worse than any other people.
British people are no worse than Irish people.
Germans are no worse than poles.
Europeans are no worse than Africans.

It's about power and opportunity. All humans will abuse if it promotes their position and goes unchecked. It's why we even need a justice system in the first place.

Today's western world has too many checks and balances for horrible history to repeat itself.

But other parts of the world do not. Hence violent warfare, genital mutilation in Africa, child prostitution and slave labour in Asia.

Once you understand that all humans will do what they can get away with, it's easier to understand the OPs point.

Of course it's easier still to just nod and say "Empire bad!"

As an Irish person, I can assure you the British empire did not improve our living standards.

Just because other countries with empires behaved poorly, does not justify the appalling behaviour of the British in their empire. The empire is nothing to be proud of. In Ireland, for example, the native Irish had their land stolen, were forced into poverty, their culture suppressed, and were murdered and starved. Many other countries have the same story to tell.

I'm ashamed to say, I did not know the extent of this. I will be reading up on it, tonight.

Empire means invasion. One country violently taking over another at the barrel of a gun, subjugating the indigenous people and stealing their resources. Then putting systems in place to hold onto that stolen power, ranging from institutional force to cultural subjugation.

There is nowhere in the world and no time in history when that was a thing to be proud of, if you consider the point of view of the subjugated.

We need to reserve our colonial thoughts to meeting in our own town centres protesting loudly and trashing the place then going home

Haha, talk about deflecting

[quote BadBanana]@strivingtosucceed I was born in Banjul, Gambia.

Though I am worried now, have my posts been hard to understand before?[/quote]
No, your english is perfect. I was just wondering if you were a fellow African is all and if so, which corner you were from.

EVerytime Im with people from another country and its mentioned im vfrom Britain, somebody makes some dull quip about the empire

I'm British, I've lived in 3 other countries and travelled to many, many more, and nobody has ever made a quip about the British empire to me.

ablackrussian has the right attitude 👍.

And once more for those who missed it upthread. Not talking about the past, but now. Why does the former colonial power think they're better than other countries? Or their rights are more important? Because that's what some (not all) in the British government are arguing now.

Empire means invasion. One country violently taking over another at the barrel of a gun, subjugating the indigenous people and stealing their resources. Then putting systems in place to hold onto that stolen power, ranging from institutional force to cultural subjugation.

Power is superiority. Which has then, through time, lent itself to perceived superiority.

And this is why I think there is such a backlash now. Because people are talking, people are uncovering the darker side of the truth, people are questioning. And those who stand to lose their 'power' are now feeling uncomfortable and zooming around the whataboutery roundabout, numerous times.

Really, it was inevitable.

@ancientgran
And again, another thoughtful post.
No one seems to think of the soldiers (conscripted/forced through circumstances) who were involved in all this empire building. What did they gain, apart from death, often severe injury & disease? Very few had decent pensions, if they survived.

What about their families? How did they cope? Being left behind for years, whilst their men go be patriotic somewhere far away, or trying to hold on to a 'restive territory' cos' the local people are not compliant to their invasion.
Only the officers and aristocracy really benefited from colonisation. Maybe, setting up civil services in various countries was an opportunity for some, but not all.
In some cases, those who worked in the colonies empathised with the locals, and encouraged aquistion of a full education, leading to an educated class who would go on to fight (yes, fight and protest) for independence.
Many others, were your typical, I now have someone worse off than me, who I can bully, exploit and abuse.
There were the quiet ones, who kept their heads down, and hoped to get back to the UK, once they had saved enough.
And finally, no ever mentions the children born, as a result of relationships between colonisers and locals. Who, then went on to lose their (mainly) fathers, as the countries became independent, and/or they simply went back to their wives.

In Ireland, for example, the native Irish had their land stolen, were forced into poverty, their culture suppressed, and were murdered and starved.

shock

I'm ashamed to say, I did not know the extent of this. I will be reading up on it, tonight.

You might also like to know that your own Home Secretary, just two years ago, threatened to starve Ireland again if we didn't play ball with Brexit. You can imagine the revulsion with which that comment was received here and why it was a particularly disgusting threat to us.

@GetOffYourHighHorse

'No, the British Empire is not always the target'

People wang on about it on here frequently as if British, well actually no, as if the English should wear hair shirts and forever apologise. I agree it was a terrible system, I dont defend it but nor do I feel responsible.

I was watching Poldark the other night (I know it is fiction but I gather it is factual regarding the struggle of the poor), the starving children and people living in poverty but I don’t feel responsible for that either. Let's move on.

You can only move on if

1. You are not the one still paying the price for it all.
2. It stopped happening.

Neither of those are true for huge swathes of British Empire and the system doesn’t look like it’s changing. So it’s very hard for people to move on unless you live in a safe place in a safe time.

I posted this link on another thread here about Irish names. It is probably more relevant to this discussion. This is what happens under colonial oppression for saying your own name.

From a little way back in the thread:

I would argue that tenant farmers and factory workers throughout Britain during the British empire reign were effectively slaves.

One thing that is often forgotten in all this is that many of us and our ancestors actually had little influence.

Totally agree.

I have been doing some family history research for the past few years and have been struck by the fact that it is clear that all of my ancestors, both English and Irish had virtually nothing - in and out of workhouses, moving from village to village for agricultural or labouring work. The same for most of those in what was then a rural, largely agricultural country. A lot, probably most, people were very, very poor.

The sad fact is that throughout history, in every country and culture, civilisations have thrived on the exploitation of others.

I was trying to think of countries that weren't colonised and wondering how free, fair and successful they were.
S America came to mind.
Britain wasn't colonised since Roman Times but was divided by religion. Lots of murdering due to that. Same in N Europe.

I think the problem has been lack of education surrounding the more negative aspects of the empire. I had no clue how widespread slave ownership was around the country until I watched a documentary about 3 months ago. I knew the British part in slavery but I had no clue that thousands of ‘normal’ men, women and children owned slaves across the country. They were paid compensation after the abolition, the government loan for it was not fully repaid until 2015!

Lots of our pension funds, and personally run funds, are in the oil industry - so we are all contributing to the CO2 emissions, destruction of the planet.
Investments go where they will make money and that is probably why ordinary people invested in slaves. No justifying it but bad stuff still happens now in the pursuit of wealth.

I was born in 1960 and history lessons at my little village primary and later in middle and secondary school completely airbrushed over all the negatives. Britain was truly great and the empire to be admired and celebrated . It was much later and well into adulthood I started to discover the terrible legacy it has left throughout the world . In the scheme of things this is very recent history and cannot easily be compared with colonisations many thousands of years back

EVerytime Im with people from another country and its mentioned im vfrom Britain, somebody makes some dull quip about the empire

I've never experienced this myself. Although if I did, I would simply agree that yes, the British Empire did have a lot to answer for.

I've spent time in Africa, in The Gambia and Uganda, so I have seen some of the consequences of our past legacy.

Although I've also been in Guinea-Bissau, a former Portuguese colony, and they were significantly worse than the British in their behaviour as colonisers. My parents were working in that region of West Africa as missionaries when the war of independence was going on in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

But the Portuguese didn't impact on so much of the world as the British did.

I was a child in the 1970s/80s and I was taught about Britain's behaviour in Ireland. It's not true to say that we don't get a balanced education.

Ireland has been held up as a nation to be admired - tell that to the millions of women denied bodily autonomy over the years and forced to come to the UK to terminate unwanted pregnancies.
I stand by my earlier statement that no country comes out of history well. Where there are people, there is exploitation and oppression. If it wasn't the British empire, it would have been one of the rival empires.
This is about how wealthy elites, who possess the power, will use that to their own benefit at the expense of everyone else, regardless of nationality.

@Straven123 - I was trying to think of countries that weren't colonised and wondering how free, fair and successful they were.
S America came to mind

Tell that to the indigenous people of S. America.

@Straven123

I was trying to think of countries that weren't colonised and wondering how free, fair and successful they were. S America came to mind. Britain wasn't colonised since Roman Times but was divided by religion. Lots of murdering due to that. Same in N Europe.

Oh really how did they end up speaking European languages (Spanish, Portuguese and French) if they weren’t colonized?

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously - Ireland has been held up as a nation to be admired - tell that to the millions of women denied bodily autonomy over the years and forced to come to the UK to terminate unwanted pregnancies.

The influence of the catholic church in Ireland was a side effect of colonisation. The country was exploited and stripped of resources and was left in penury. The church providing health care and education, something that may not have happened without colonisation. Without these roles, their levels of influence would have been very different.