To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

The cowboys in westerns spoke English because that was the language of Americans.

And guess what? A hell of a lot of cowboys were black. (Possibly up to 25% I read recently.) Former slaves gone west.

allthatsinteresting.com/black-cowboys

Not that you would glean THAT from Hollywood westerns.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in?

Why are you concerned about being “fair” to an empire?

I think because a lot of our ancestors were impoverished and badly treated too in the UK.

The other point you raise I’m keen to address is what might these other cultures have achieved without our interference? Well we will of course never know, but empirically looking at human societies (and even other Empires for that matter!) generally I would have predicted an awful lot of wars, suffering and death.

Before the colonial era, Asian empires and kingdoms were the most powerful and advanced in the world. They considered Europeans backwards savages. Whether you look at trade, manufacturing, culture, science, the Asian powers were the ones leading the way. This is precisely why European powers sought better trade routes to Asia (the catalyst for imperial expansion).

Had these peoples never been colonised, it's entirely possible they would have continued on this trajectory and remained the world's dominant powers. They might have accomplished on their own all those things that Europeans take such pride in 'giving' to their conquered territories. Yes there would have been wars (there are always wars), just like Europe had its wars. But that is very different from the conquest and lasting exploitation that the European powers imposed.

As you say, we will never know. But to truly understand how devastating colonialism was, it's important to see what an enormous reversal of fortune it entailed. It is hard to see how India, for example, could have ended up any worse if it had never been colonised, considering all of its material and intellectual wealth prior to that era.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously
I really enjoyed your posting about the various empires and the impact they have in different parts of the world.
I do agree it would be good if there were a better history curriculum, but as you said it's an Arts subject, so not considered important enough, to get 'right' or try treat objectively as possible. Besides, the interest has to be there. Too many students & people, see no point in looking backwards to a past they cannot understand.
It is interesting though how the major religions have also flexed their cultural ethics in various empires. While many modern world governments are happy to exploit this ignorance and support it, in trying to achieve a similar show of power over other 'lesser' nations.
But of course, those who do not learn from the past, are bound to repeat similar mistakes.

@Brefugee - I used the words Irish Potato Famine especially to make my point. Which you would have seen if you'd read and inwardly digested the rest of my post,

I did read your post, which is why I asked politely that you don't use the term. Any point you were making by using that term would go over the head of those you were trying to make it to while also annoying Irish people as it diminishes the famine.

@Linning
Well said and thought out.
No empire/country is perfect, but knowing and owning one's history and flaws, will go a long way to create good governship and informed citizens.

However, reading many of the detailed replies, it is nice to know that not everyone sees the histories of empires in the simplistic view of ours was a 'good or world-beating' one, whatever the human (at home or abroad) cost.

EVerytime Im with people from another country and its mentioned im vfrom Britain, somebody makes some dull quip about the empire. No matter if they're from Belgium, France, Holland etc. Ive even had loads of(anglo) new-zealanders do it. It seems to be only the british empire that we talk about and constan tly whip ourselves over.
My ancestors were gypsies and scottish fishermen- hardly think they were living it up on loot.
People dont dream of doing this with German people and nazism or Russians and the USSR so why do we have to endlessly hear about it?

Before the colonial era, Asian empires and kingdoms were the most powerful and advanced in the world. They considered Europeans backwards savages. Whether you look at trade, manufacturing, culture, science, the Asian powers were the ones leading the way.

And yet it was in Europe that steam power and electricity were first harnessed.

It’s always very difficult to play the ‘what-if’ game in history. What if Alexander the Great hadn’t died? What if Rome has never been (personal favourite). All parts of the world have ideas. All parts of the world make contributions. All parts of the world have depended on the unsung labour of women and lower status people. I don’t know that we need Asians replacing Aryans.

Some people really do have a blind spot about Germans and how they’ve paid for the earmarks don’t they. Try going to Koln, or various other cities, and looking for little plaques everywhere outside houses, detailing the Jews who lived there and their fates. The world wars are everywhere in Germany.

Earmarks??? World wars.

And everybody learns in first year university history that 'history is written by the victors' is complete nonsense.

Learning about the history of the British empire without the jingoistic slants isn't revisionist history.

I think it goes too far to start saying people today should be carrying the guilt of what people did centuries ago and I find myself zoning our when arguments go that way, but it's right to consider what was done in the name of empire and to acknowledge that many of the privileges we have today, we have because of empire.

Equally, the end of empire and how it was handled also has interesting links to many geopolitical issues and ongoing conflict. Is it really that bad to learn about this?

And yet it was in Europe that steam power and electricity were first harnessed.

And look at the mess we've made of the world with them. Who's to say that if Western Science hadn't come to dominate the way the human race interacted with the natural world we wouldn't have come up with some other, better way of being and not trashing the planet in the process?

Yeah, or filling the German civil services with ex nazis, or keeping around thousands of companies which used holocaust slave labour, or naming streets after Rommel, or refusing to give houses back to returning jews. So then, little plaques everywhere, but nothing that actually matters.

@TheSandman

And yet it was in Europe that steam power and electricity were first harnessed.

And look at the mess we've made of the world with them. Who's to say that if Western Science hadn't come to dominate the way the human race interacted with the natural world we wouldn't have come up with some other, better way of being and not trashing the planet in the process?

I think the end of every single civilisation has been marked by environmental degradation. Some of it was natural. Some of it was man made. We are ecosystem engineers.

We are here now. Where are we going? Destroying the past? Bulldoze Babylon? Is that the only answer?

@woodhill

I read somewhere that the British in India stopped widows sacrificing themselves on the funeral pyre of their dead husbands

And?

@contrmary
It's nice to know some people feel the idea of slavery is one to be flippant about (but you of course are not alone).

Would you really want to be a slave or your children, or your parents? Do you really understand what slavery entails? It might be something that has existed from prehistoric times and now in other places. Does that mean that murder is okay or 'right' or 'not wrong' as you would say? So we can expect you to carry out a murder with all the confidence, that it is what people do?

You do know that slavery is a slow death, murdering a person (& their hopes & dreams), sometimes from childhood; often with physical and emotional abuse and violent treatment.

Slaves do not have an easy way out. Even if set free in a 'semi-healthy' (mind/body) state, they often are still seen as former slaves, and will have no assets or money to provide for themselves. They may still end up hiring out their physical labour/bodies to survive.

You come over as having very little compassion for others in their times of great distress or need. Shame.
At least you're not a slave :)

It's hilarious on here. The German nation is not saintly

No nation or empire is. I rather think that that’s part of the issue. By definition they’re hierarchical. Time doesn’t stand still. Much of the wealth of empire that came to Europe and we apparently all benefited from has gone: to a few private pockets, been destroyed by war or been paid to America in war debts.

@user1471565182

EVerytime Im with people from another country and its mentioned im vfrom Britain, somebody makes some dull quip about the empire. No matter if they're from Belgium, France, Holland etc. Ive even had loads of(anglo) new-zealanders do it. It seems to be only the british empire that we talk about and constan tly whip ourselves over. My ancestors were gypsies and scottish fishermen- hardly think they were living it up on loot. People dont dream of doing this with German people and nazism or Russians and the USSR so why do we have to endlessly hear about it?

I live in England and hear quips about Germans/Nazis, Japan/concentration camps often enough. Those situations were beyond horrific and shouldn't be forgotten but I don't think that the British empire is the only conquerors facing criticism.

@orinocosfavoritecake
When the shoe is on the other foot, life is always unfair.

@OchonAgusOchonO
with apologies for using the term. You still haven't understood the point which is that people in England know as much about that period of irish history to use only the term that isn't acceptable because they never hear any other term and they have zero idea beyond "the potato crop failed"
and it is exactly as insulting to that history as me being constantly told i live in a nation of Nazis.

The point - which you obviously didn't get in your haste to tell me not to do something - is that unless this is taught in schools those words are going to be used again and again and again. Something i suspect neither of us wants.

People dont dream of doing this with German people and nazism or Russians and the USSR so why do we have to endlessly hear about it?

your ears must be full of cheese. Get rid of it and try to look beyond the borders of a slightly damp island off the coast of Europe. You would be surprised.

Belgium is currently quite active in confronting it's past.

I’ve just watched a program on the Spanish conquistadors totally destroying the new world in 50 years, also destroying the Incas and Aztec empires. They raided the gold and spices and turned Cuba into the hub of the slave trade.

We moved on to India and tied humans to cannons before we fired them. Rumoured that we fired children out of cannons to subdue villages.

Early this evening I watched a documentary on Bob Marley. The whole country was caught up in political warfare by white men.

White people have not got a good history. History that needs to learned by young white children.