To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

@OchonAgusOchonO I'm not a fan of Ireland laying all its shortcomings at the feet of colonialism, and I say that as someone who is half irish. My dad was a nationalist and would always, whatever the issue, say: "Ah but we're a young country".

The voting on this makes me despair.

Various comparison have been made to Nazi Germany, but the Germans aren't holding televised national sing songs glorifying the Nazis, are they?

Whereas in Britain, the empire and all its evil is still very much glorified - just look at last night of the proms.

Everything is influenced by something else though. At some point a country has to take responsibility for its own decisions. And Ireland chose, for a very long time, to oppress women.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Everything is influenced by something else though. At some point a country has to take responsibility for its own decisions. And Ireland chose, for a very long time, to oppress women.

A very short time in the greater scheme of things. We have only been independent for 100 years. Abortion is not the only measure of women's rights. Women's position in Ireland was and is comparable with most other western countries. In some areas we were better, in some areas we were worse. In many areas we still have a distance to go.

@OchonAgusOchonO
100 years is massive 🤦‍♀️

@GoldfishParade - I'm not a fan of Ireland laying all its shortcomings at the feet of colonialism, and I say that as someone who is half irish. My dad was a nationalist and would always, whatever the issue, say: "Ah but we're a young country".

Maybe read the post I was replying to and you'll see why I posted as I did.

Ireland is independent and in control of our own destiny. It has, understandably, taken time to find our path. That path has been influenced by our past.

I think that’s ultimately what makes a lot of people a bit defensive. Empire is an awful thing. All “powerful” and “advanced” refer to is the amount of resources and people they can control. But the argument that everyone in Britain should be guilty forever because without the empire there would be Utopia filled with noble savages is, well, utopian. Local states would have been as controlling and as exploitative of its low status people - indeed, the British empire usually used and sat upon local control structures.

Empire was largely ditched as a way of organising the world after the War, and many of us are disturbed by the growth of authoritarianism again, on all sides.

Whereas in Britain, the empire and all its evil is still very much glorified - just look at last night of the proms.

Who exactly is doing this glorifying? Not your average person on the street as far as I am concerned. Most people recognise that the UK is a former colonial power that has nowhere near the global clout that China or the US have. The UK does however punch above its weight with considerable economic, cultural, military, scientific and political influence internationally. The legacy of Britain's empire is still well felt today globally with language, sports, legal systems and other aspects of Britains colonial history leaving their mark. The fact is that during the height of the empire the average Brit still lived and died young in poverty and had very few rights.

As for the proms it is a classical music festival that frequently exhibits talents from across the globe during its run. Banging out Rule Britania on the last night is a tiny fraction of its output.

@OchonAgusOchonO
I understand your point because its one I've heard for years. I'm saying it's one I disagree with. I think it's too easy to continuously hide behind "the nasty brits" now more than a century later. It shouldn't take that long, see ireland not recognising irish travellers until 2017 - despite being denounced by the UN.

@GoldfishParade - 100 years is massive

Not really. When a country has been stripped of its resources and been under the jackboot of oppression for 800 years, it takes time to find your path. Additionally, it has not taken us 100 years to get to equality. As I stated, abortion is not the only measure of women's rights although it seems to be the only measure a certain cohort of British people use to claim Ireland is backwards.

Ireland had plenty of areas where improvement is required but so do most other countries.

It isn't just that abortion was illegal, though. Girls who became pregnant (including many through rape and incest) were forced to give birth and give up their babies to be adopted. They were treated shamefully as well by the nuns running the homes where the girls were sent to give birth.

There was some of that in the UK as well, sadly, but abortion has been available since 1967, apart from in Northern Ireland until the last year.

@DillonPanthersTexas

Whereas in Britain, the empire and all its evil is still very much glorified - just look at last night of the proms.

Who exactly is doing this glorifying? Not your average person on the street as far as I am concerned. Most people recognise that the UK is a former colonial power that has nowhere near the global clout that China or the US have. The UK does however punch above its weight with considerable economic, cultural, military, scientific and political influence internationally. The legacy of Britain's empire is still well felt today globally with language, sports, legal systems and other aspects of Britains colonial history leaving their mark. The fact is that during the height of the empire the average Brit still lived and died young in poverty and had very few rights.

As for the proms it is a classical music festival that frequently exhibits talents from across the globe during its run. Banging out Rule Britania on the last night is a tiny fraction of its output.

A YouGov survey showed that 55% opposed the BBC's decision to play LoHG and Rule Britannia without lyrics, and the Daily Mail (which has the 3rd biggest readership in the UK after the Metto and the Sun) ran a petition about it.

Plenty of ordinary people are still glorifying the British empire.

@GoldfishParade - I understand your point because its one I've heard for years. I'm saying it's one I disagree with.

Please point out where I stated all Ireland's ills are a result of the British. A poster referred to abortion, using it as an example of Ireland's backwardness. I explained why the Catholic Church was able to gain the influence it did in Ireland which resulted in the abortion ban lasting much longer in Ireland than in parts of the UK.

You may not like it, but it is fact.

Abortion and birth control are quite big measures of women's rights though.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I agree with you. The ban on contraception and abortion guaranteed that girls would get pregnant and would be forced to give birth to an unwanted baby and be forced to give the baby up for adoption because of the stigma surrounding unmarried mothers.

As an adoptive mum, I see what damage is done to babies separated from their birth mum.

@Mittens030869 - It isn't just that abortion was illegal, though. Girls who became pregnant (including many through rape and incest) were forced to give birth and give up their babies to be adopted. They were treated shamefully as well by the nuns running the homes where the girls were sent to give birth.

Yes, I agree that is an appalling part of our history. It has taken us time to get out from under the influence of the catholic church, something that we are still working on. Most schools are still Catholic but that is slowly changing.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously - Abortion and birth control are quite big measures of women's rights though.

Yes, they are.

I used female bodily autonomy to point out that no country comes out of history entirely unblemished. Ireland was in a position to move away from Catholic doctrine quite some time ago and chose not to. There comes a point when a country can't say it's all Britain's fault and have to take responsibility for their own choices.
See also Rwanda. The genocide was not France or Belgium's fault just because they have history there. The people responsible are the people who did it. Same with terrorism, when BJ gets the blame for restarting the troubles (to clarify I think he's wrong to break agreements) but in the end of violence restarts, it's down to the people putting bombs in shopping centres and under cars.

@Pepperwort But the argument that everyone in Britain should be guilty forever

Nobody has suggested that. What has been suggested is that people today should not glorify empire. Very different to feeling guilt.

without the empire there would be Utopia filled with noble savages is, well, utopian.

Really? Noble savages?

The song Rule Britannia is not about the empire or glorifying it. It was written during a war with us, France, in which we were seriously about to invade you again and take over Britain again. And the song was written to stir up national pride and vow to never be slaves again like the Anglo Saxons were when we French successfully did the Norman invasion.

The problem is that some of this is recent history and many indigenous cultures are still paying the price for effectively being invaded.

Noble savages is a common phrase representing the innocent rural idyll, yes, and there are attitudes that are reminiscent of it. Have you not heard the phrase before?

@OchonAgusOchonO
The Catholic Church was not the root cause of abortion laws lasting as long as they did, that's a handy fig leaf that simplifies the somewhat thornier issue of social conservatism. Many Catholic countries have had abortion rights in place for decades.

All countries have areas where they can progress. I'm saying consistently excusing a sluggishness in change as being the result of a system that ended over a century ago is, in my view, too easy and subconsciously absolves a nation from looking inwards.

The Catholic Church does not, for example, explain the appalling treatment of travellers in ireland.

Indeed, Islandbluethe Native Americans are still fighting for rights and justice following maltreatment and oppression by the USA.

@ GoldfishParade - The Catholic Church was not the root cause of abortion laws lasting as long as they did, that's a handy fig leaf that simplifies the somewhat thornier issue of social conservatism. Many Catholic countries have had abortion rights in place for decades.

The influence of the catholic church was what led to social conservatism.

I'm saying consistently excusing a sluggishness in change as being the result of a system that ended over a century ago is, in my view, too easy and subconsciously absolves a nation from looking inwards.

I have not done that. But equally, ignoring the influence of the past and expecting instant transformation is unrealistic. Things take time. We have moved on.

The Catholic Church does not, for example, explain the appalling treatment of travellers in ireland.

I don't recall seeing it did.