To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

TheWashingMachine - you are exactly the sort of poster the OP had in mind when she/he started this thread.

What were their intentions TheWashingMachine?

I would say that the big benefit of empire - perhaps the only one - is the spread of ideas. Once spread they never go away and impact never stops. People say Rome is now irrelevant - hardly, we still have Christianity and the church is one of Britain’s largest landholders. Rome brought misogyny wherever it went. Half the destruction Spain caused in the Americas had bringing Christian ‘enlightenment’ as an excuse. I cannot think of any big melting pot of ideas that was not preceded by empire. Trade does not quite have the same effect, because that is just the movement of things, not people and their cultural organisations of the world.

I don’t say this as justifications for empire and the brutalities. Just that it happened: to borrow an image from Ursula Le Guin you hold both, one in each hand, side by side. My understanding is that the EU was in part an attempt to replicate the diversity without the brutality. Britain’s commercial interests may have only seen it as that, but it was more.

I apologise for nothing my ancestors did.

You don't have to. You do understand that those who were negatively impacted by your ancestors actions, as opposed to benefiting from them as their descendants no doubt did - possibly view them with a little less admiration?

@mbosnz

Learn from it. Then accept it's history. Trying to make the British people (namely white British people) feel guilty for something done by past generations is just a nasty manipulative bit of gaslighting.

Well, actually, for some, it's current events. The impacts are being felt to this day. I would argue that saying, 'oh well, it was shit, but it's in the past, move on', is a nasty bit of gaslighting. A bit like a dude smashing a woman, then saying, well yeah, I did it, it's a bit shit, but it's the past, move on'. Particularly if the woman's jaw is still wired up.

And quite frankly, it's not all about the British people and how they feel about it being talked about, it's about nations, colonies and people's affected, exploring their history and experience and talking about it and recording it, and how they feel about it.

Well put!

The British Empire was acting reprehensibly less than 70 years ago. You can't compare it to the Mongol empire!

I'm not picking on you specifically as I have seen the same term used by others, but the term "Irish Potato Famine" is a bit dismissive of the enormity of the famine. I know it is used by some people outside Ireland but it's really not appropriate. The Irish Famine is more acceptable wording.

pick as much as you like. I used the words Irish Potato Famine especially to make my point. Which you would have seen if you'd read and inwardly digested the rest of my post, @OchonAgusOchonO

It is EXACTLY the point i was making.

Every person in Britain today benefits from Britain's colonial past.

There's no point looking back at History and condemning it's inhabitants based on today's values.

The world is full of many nations who carry out barbaric and atrocious acts every day- it's not the preserve of white people, of Britons, or much to do with racism. It's about power.

One launched a series of radio programmes to educate women about budgeting, family planning, nutrition etc, it doesn't sound like much but she worked with UNESCO to roll them out internationally, other relatives were doctors in Palestine, another a missionary very well known in Nigeria, another an engineer on the railways. They were just hard working ordinary people who wanted to make others lives better.

The world is full of many nations who carry out barbaric and atrocious acts every day- it's not the preserve of white people, of Britons, or much to do with racism. It's about power.

It's also about actions = consequences. Taking ownership of one's actions and their consequences - on an historical and national scale. Rather than saying, 'well gee, everybody else was doing it, it wasn't just me, what are you picking on me for? It's not faaiiiir'. . .

As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about

This sounds super defensive. I've never felt that way in the slightest.

Personally I’d call womens rights hugely important - both in view of direct human rights, and to support those who themselves support others. Health isn’t really arguable. UNESCO involvement puts that way after war time, barely empire time at all?

Well, for New Zealand (sorry to bang on, but that's my field of somewhat inept expertise), it's the New Zealand Government that is making reparations to the Maori for abuses suffered under colonist rule, as the representative of the British Crown. No cost any which way to the British, Black, white, yellow, red, or any other colour.

And really, I'm sorry if it's uncomfortable for Britons, here, or there, or their descendants, but um, tough shit.

"History is accurately recorded."

When I read someone spouting something like this with such arrogance and lack of irony I am reminded of something Toni Morrison said:

“The function, the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining, over and over again, your reason for being. Somebody says you have no language and you spend twenty years proving that you do. Somebody says your head isn’t shaped properly so you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary. There will always be one more thing.”

People who blindly defend the Empire without ever acknowledging the fact that it has left a terrible legacy that, while we are not personally responsible for it, we should still work very hard to dismantle, are just time wasters.

So I'm going to go elsewhere. The arguments here are old and increasingly pointless and irrelevant. When change comes it comes fast and it's happening now. You can feel bad about that and whinge about the golden days of the British empire or you can embrace a better more equitable future. I know what I'l be doing.

I believe there is a common joke in Germany that Hitler was in fact Austrian.

I can assure you that there is no such thing - it is a statement of fact that he was Austrian, but since at the time, i think, Germany laid claim to at least parts of Austria it's a bit of a moot point. Especially after the annexation (Anschluss).

The discussion about the British Empire doing good, like building railways, well... Hitler (and his mate Speer) started the Autobahns. Should we praise them for that?

I was in Dresden a few years ago. Luckily, if people notice i'm not German they usually place my accent as Dutch so it's not always hugely uncomfortable. But we heard a lot about the bombing of Dresden - which could be considered a war-crime - and how the firestorm was so hot, the oxygen was immediately sucked out of rooms and people asphyxiated before they burned. Probably a mercy, but imagine living through that (and yes, i know about Coventry, Sheffield and the Blitz.)

The point isn't that the British Empire and the British nation did awful awful things. And the point isn't that they were the only ones, they weren't. The point is how do we as Brits handle our past. Acknowledge it, take steps to right wrongs if we can and accept the past.

A lot of people (not meaning pp here) would also do well to note that the Great in Britain relates only to the comparison with what was Less Britain (Brittany) and nothing to do with how fantastic (or not) the country or people were.

@mbosnz

Learn from it. Then accept it's history. Trying to make the British people (namely white British people) feel guilty for something done by past generations is just a nasty manipulative bit of gaslighting.

Well, actually, for some, it's current events. The impacts are being felt to this day. I would argue that saying, 'oh well, it was shit, but it's in the past, move on', is a nasty bit of gaslighting. A bit like a dude smashing a woman, then saying, well yeah, I did it, it's a bit shit, but it's the past, move on'. Particularly if the woman's jaw is still wired up.

And quite frankly, it's not all about the British people and how they feel about it being talked about, it's about nations, colonies and people's affected, exploring their history and experience and talking about it and recording it, and how they feel about it.

That's true of all history and it doesn't only relate to British Empire issues. That's pretty much the definition of history, all the things that happened that lead to the way things are now.

It's nothing like a dude smashing a woman and then asking her to forget it, no one alive now had any more to do with, say, the creation of Canada, than they did with the Saxon invasions.

Well the entity 'Britain' had a bit to do with it. . .

And that still exists. . .

Otherwise those that identify with that entity wouldn't be so defensive about negative commentary about the British Empire's historical actions, surely?

@mbosnz Actually it's not a current event. The affects of colonialism are being felt, because that is what historical events do. They affect present day. The British colonialists in America wiped out many Native American tribes. That is an obvious affect. However the early colonialists are no longer here. They are the ones to be held accountable, not me, you or anyone living today. So telling me and others like me (white British) is just plain gaslighting and pretty despicable.

Not 'telling' blaming...

As I pointed out Tornadoalley, you're not being held accountable. You're not the ones making reparations or apologies. Except that history is now being discussed and recorded to perhaps more accurately reflect the experience of the colonised nations and peoples - who as you yourself acknowledge, still experience the impacts of having been colonised, and unfortunately it's hurting some people's feelings.

When people talk about the British Empire and Britain - they're not talking about you personally. You're not being held liable in any way. Except there might be a degree of historical antipathy towards the entities and sometimes those who come from them.

@OchonAgusOchonO no insult intended I assure you.

I think your characterisation of my list as bringing enlightenment to the savages is a fair one. However, and I think this is crucial to consider in this discussion this very much includes the savagery within ourselves. Which I appreciate wasn’t the perception at the time, or indeed even now from some people on my side of the debate.

I would agree with you if you would challenge the notions of racial superiority that riddle the very notion of Empire, which is one of the many reasons why it’s a good thing we have moved past Empire.

You are of course also quite correct upon pointing out that the countries that unshackled themselves from the Empire peaceably did so because the financial benefit had expired, but again one of the reasons this could occur was progressive advances in economic theory shifting both our Empire and by extension a lot of the rest of the world away from Mercantilism (which is the very economic practice that underpins and drives empire itself) towards free market theories, again very much a product of the British Empire.

I will however fiercely stand by assertion that we realised slavery was a great moral evil, challenged it and upended it when it was not in our economic short term interest to do so. The reason why I am committed to this point is not primarily to lionise the British, it more points to the fact that large societies can in principle act against their own self interest on ethical grounds which has relevance today in the sphere of environmental discussions, as well as others. Thus carries relevance today.

The other point you raise I’m keen to address is what might these other cultures have achieved without our interference? Well we will of course never know, but empirically looking at human societies (and even other Empires for that matter!) generally I would have predicted an awful lot of wars, suffering and death.

Human history was and indeed is sadly still replete with a lot of atrocity, murder and hate. Whilst I appreciate it is the fashion to scapegoat things like the British Empire for these all too common human failings, I do not believe it is cognitively dissonant of me to take pride in my culture’s contributions in moving us all away from such things as well as giving fair reflection to the times we have given into those darker impulses ourselves.

I also think we would all derive great benefit from a wider study and appreciation of world history/culture, as there is a vast richness to be found in all corners of the world.

For the record I don’t think we should dismiss the concept of reparations out of hand. I’m not entirely sure how it might work, but when we ended slavery we did so by paying the slave owners for the value of the slaves (a government debt we only recently paid off in the last 10 years or so). It might have been better if at the time we had also paid all those freed from Slavery a sum to get them started as free people.

It’s not necessarily too late to correct that and whilst I appreciate it might be a logistical nightmare I think it might be worth looking into.

The British colonialists in America wiped out many Native American tribes
I don't think they were particularly British, I think the settlers were all nationalities. The cowboys in westerns spoke english because that was the language of americans.

I read somewhere that the British in India stopped widows sacrificing themselves on the funeral pyre of their dead husbands

The other point you raise I’m keen to address is what might these other cultures have achieved without our interference? Well we will of course never know, but empirically looking at human societies (and even other Empires for that matter!) generally I would have predicted an awful lot of wars, suffering and death.

I'm not so sure - look at mathematics and so on coming from Asia back then, If the British Empire hadn't dominated anything (or another western nation) then we might have heard more about other cultures, other types of philosophy etc etc, rather than assuming the Great White Men Of the West had the best brains.