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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Questions for white people

730 replies

Questionspandemic · 15/09/2020 12:54

Why are white people offended by black people talking about racism?

Obviously not all white people are racist and name changed - in case of gaslighting.

OP posts:
BlackWaveComing · 16/09/2020 22:10

I agree that the language used around wp is ineffective.

For me, it was so telling that the women who wrote one of the most famous articles on wp - Unpacking the Suitcase - was an incredibly class-privileged woman. Elite, really. A very wealthy family, an elite education - and mc white women who've only just discovered racism exists can't wait to throw her terms and examples into the faces of those whose world is nothing like Peggy Mackintosh's.

Class can intersect with race, just as it does with sex and with disability and homophobia and ageism...yes. There are many poor black families, for example, who suffer on account of racism and classism.

But it's funny an effective answer would seem to be socially-economically privileged whites insisting that the poor white family recognize their racial privilege.

If the issue is structural, and material, then it needs to be solved at that level, not at the level of rich progressive whites viewing themselves as a combo of white saviour/interrogator.

All the online posturing is worth very little.
I'd challenge white Mumsnetters to put their money where their mouth is instead. Find a Black organization that aligns with your values. Donate a week's pay. Worth more than shouting 'wp', would have an amazing effect on those orgs ability to support Black people.

I know ppl will complain - corona, recession, low paid blah blah. And some ppl are truly too poor to give any cash away, let alone a week's wages.

But some of us (low paid, partner lost job due to virus) did do that as a statement of solidarity with our Black and brown siblings.

Or, you know, I could have spent the last few months pontificating on social media about my white privilege.

MitziK · 16/09/2020 22:13

I'm not offended by anybody talking about racism. It's vile.

I was offended, however, when on two occasions I was personally (and extremely loudly) accused of being racist by people who simply didn't like the circumstances they were in and I was not able to give them what they demanded.

By all means, object to the situation, object to my inability to meet frankly unreasonable demands that would - could - not be met for anybody. But to aggressively state that they aren't getting their own way because I'm a spiteful racist rather than somebody acting entirely in good faith, within the law and with a fair amount of sympathy for their predicament? Fuck off.

FloraButterCookie · 16/09/2020 22:22

@GoatWardrobe watch Unquiet Graves on RTE1, it’s on now

SchrodingersImmigrant · 16/09/2020 22:34

I'd challenge white Mumsnetters to put their money where their mouth is instead. Find a Black organization that aligns with your values. Donate a week's pay. Worth more than shouting 'wp', would have an amazing effect on those orgs ability to support Black people.

It's lovely you donate, but many people, like me, would have to take away from different causes. We do have budgets. But in a principle I agree with you

BlackWaveComing · 16/09/2020 22:41

@SchrodingersImmigrant

I'd challenge white Mumsnetters to put their money where their mouth is instead. Find a Black organization that aligns with your values. Donate a week's pay. Worth more than shouting 'wp', would have an amazing effect on those orgs ability to support Black people.

It's lovely you donate, but many people, like me, would have to take away from different causes. We do have budgets. But in a principle I agree with you

Of course!

For that reason, I chose an org that supports black women and girls.

The principle really, though, is simply less posturing by allies, who are often ineffective or worse, and more material engagement themselves.

Stripesgalore · 16/09/2020 23:11

I was listening to a podcast yesterday with a man on from a development agency. He was saying that there are very few social issues which are going to be improved by raising awareness. What is actually required is material change.

BlackWaveComing · 17/09/2020 00:23

@Stripesgalore

I was listening to a podcast yesterday with a man on from a development agency. He was saying that there are very few social issues which are going to be improved by raising awareness. What is actually required is material change.
Yep.
PatricksRum · 17/09/2020 00:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mathanxiety · 17/09/2020 05:12

He was saying that there are very few social issues which are going to be improved by raising awareness. What is actually required is material change.

When part of the problem is complete lack of awareness and many, many wrong assumptions about the causes of many problems, I feel that raising awareness and keeping the problems front and centre is important.

Material change happens when there is a groundswell of general opinion in favour of it.

mellongoose · 17/09/2020 05:57

Btw non white communities are racist towards each other. Are we also talking about this?

turnitonagain · 17/09/2020 06:24

@mellongoose

Btw non white communities are racist towards each other. Are we also talking about this?
Any group that is experiencing discrimination or oppression should speak up about it. Assuming they have access to Mumsnet as you and I do they can post about it for discussion.

Or is this just a random “what about” comment?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 17/09/2020 07:00

I'd challenge white Mumsnetters to put their money where their mouth is instead. Find a Black organization that aligns with your values. Donate a week's pay. Worth more than shouting 'wp', would have an amazing effect on those orgs ability to support Black people I don't know who wrote that, I just saw it quoted above but I'd have to add that you'd get no luck from me either.

Unless you'd prefer I stop volunteering/working for the local community charity and food bank that works to bring support, help with endless forms, legal advice, food, cloothing, translation services etc etc. for all residents in need. Over the years we have had Afro Carribbean, Afghani, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Eastern European clients - depending on the economic migration de jour.

Or shall I just accept the challenge and ask the poster to tell me if I have won something interesting or not?

Racism and xenophobia are different things, although they are often connected. THIS!!

Ablackrussian · 17/09/2020 07:24

When a racist incident happened in our area (and someone had put a post on FB), I remember my son adding that the same thing had happened to him, a few times. A (white) poster got very angry, accused my son of lying and said that is not a racist place.

I think it's that attitude of thinking you know it all, when you no nothing at all (the lived experiences). But rather than admit that, they'd rather accuse someone else of lying.

I've seen it a lot.

Havaiana · 17/09/2020 08:04

@BlackWaveComing

I agree that the language used around wp is ineffective.

For me, it was so telling that the women who wrote one of the most famous articles on wp - Unpacking the Suitcase - was an incredibly class-privileged woman. Elite, really. A very wealthy family, an elite education - and mc white women who've only just discovered racism exists can't wait to throw her terms and examples into the faces of those whose world is nothing like Peggy Mackintosh's.

Class can intersect with race, just as it does with sex and with disability and homophobia and ageism...yes. There are many poor black families, for example, who suffer on account of racism and classism.

But it's funny an effective answer would seem to be socially-economically privileged whites insisting that the poor white family recognize their racial privilege.

If the issue is structural, and material, then it needs to be solved at that level, not at the level of rich progressive whites viewing themselves as a combo of white saviour/interrogator.

All the online posturing is worth very little.
I'd challenge white Mumsnetters to put their money where their mouth is instead. Find a Black organization that aligns with your values. Donate a week's pay. Worth more than shouting 'wp', would have an amazing effect on those orgs ability to support Black people.

I know ppl will complain - corona, recession, low paid blah blah. And some ppl are truly too poor to give any cash away, let alone a week's wages.

But some of us (low paid, partner lost job due to virus) did do that as a statement of solidarity with our Black and brown siblings.

Or, you know, I could have spent the last few months pontificating on social media about my white privilege.

put your money where your mouth is

This is shorthand for shut up.

joystir59 · 17/09/2020 08:17

Because most white people have been raised within a racist societal and cultural framework and are therefore racist but unwilling to acknowledge this and/or unable to recognise the nuanced and subtle manifestations of their racism

SchrodingersImmigrant · 17/09/2020 08:23

Racism and xenophobia are different things, although they are often connected

Well, in the end of the day it ends up the same.
People get beaten up.
Families have letters through letter boxes to go back to x.
There were cases of arsons on houses.
Shouted at on street.
Discriminated at work.
Killed...

It affects everyone who is different in any way. And final effect is the same.

Lweji · 17/09/2020 09:07

The original was:

Mind you, humans like patterns, so stereotyping is natural to us.
Racism and xenophobia are different things, although they are often connected.

It was meant as racism and xenophobia are different to stereotyping. Although stereotyping is part of racism and xenophobia.
Should have been clearer.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 17/09/2020 09:08

Ah. Sorry!

Lweji · 17/09/2020 09:10

Xenophobia can be reciprocal, but racism is when one group is dominant or considered superior.

RaspberrySkies · 17/09/2020 13:54

I just saw this clip on Glennon Doyle's insa talking about how "white supremacy has cost white women our souls"

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CFM8psEBHss/?igshid=1t0cwqbr8f15f

I think this is true to a certain extent.
I am a WW. I often feel people disengaging when I mention racism... and I don't mean by that that I am accusing them of being racist directly) and wondered if anyone else could relate?

I think there are many factors to this: exhaustion, covid stress, guilt, a feeling that they can't change things... that they may say the wrong thing & be misunderstood, that it's not about them.... any thoughts?

SchrodingersImmigrant · 17/09/2020 14:40

I don't understand the guilt thing. Why do people feel guilty that someone else is racist?

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 17/09/2020 15:04

@SchrodingersImmigrant I can imagine it's very similar to the feelings of shame and embarrassment that some groups feel when one person/group of people show them up. For example, growing up I would regularly see my family getting angry when seeing a news article about a West Indian person committing a crime, saying that the people who do those things make the whole black community look bad and make it harder to walk with your head held high. I've heard Muslim people expressing the same feelings about terrorists that supposedly do things 'in the name of Islam' - they're worried that people will think that all Islamic people hold the same views. It's embarrassing and scary and yes there is an element of guilt. Nobody should have to feel that way and white people shouldn't have to explain themselves everywhere they go, but it would certainly be useful for them to show that they don't agree with racist sentiment when they see it on an online forum. Like the other day when a black poster condemned white posters' support calling it 'virtue signalling'. I made it clear that I don't feel that way and neither do a lot of people. What good would it do to pretend I don't see it, and then wonder why people feel they can't talk freely about those things?

SchrodingersImmigrant · 17/09/2020 15:42

I see what you mean, but I don't see guilt in it. Anger and worry, yes.
I do the same when my nation is in news
"🙄 Ffs. Idiots will just make things worse" but I don't feel guilt.

Guilt is very subjective, isn't it.

Lweji · 17/09/2020 16:13

It's a bit like some people telling Muslims to do something about Islamic terrorism.
Any random muslim shouldn't feel guilty by association.
Neither should any white person for racism. Or for white supremacist terrorism.
Ultimately, though, it's everyone's responsibility to fight any of them.

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 17/09/2020 16:32

@Lweji

It's a bit like some people telling Muslims to do something about Islamic terrorism. Any random muslim shouldn't feel guilty by association. Neither should any white person for racism. Or for white supremacist terrorism. Ultimately, though, it's everyone's responsibility to fight any of them.

And to not make things worse by perpetuating negative stereotypes.

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