Questions for white people

[Questionspandemic]

Why are white people offended by black people talking about racism?

Obviously not all white people are racist and name changed - in case of gaslighting.

@dadshere

Maybe some people are sick of being constantly told that they are racist, that they only have the job or house they worked hard for because of some mythical 'white privilege' gifting it to them. Maybe they are sick and tired of people blaming everything on them and their unconcious racism and bias. Maybe.

This.

I think the old adage about “when you’re used to privilege, equality feels like oppression” springs to mind.

this is like a couple of years ago. Post after post asking why people voted for Brexit. After a while, anyone who had stepped out of the MN mindhive and not voted Remain got tired of being shot down, and left the posts to Remainers.
Questions like this are never asked in good faith, it's just a space to give anyone who dares to have a nuanced opinion a good kicking.

I don't know really, some people are just ignorant aren't they? BLM has certainly brought the racists out of the woodwork- to be honest in most cases it was predictable who was closet racist, tends to go hand in hand with a superiority complex, sadly. They're deluded and they're lives are poorer for it.

Questionspandemic
Why are white people offended by black people talking about racism?

I wonder if the reason is because if you don't toe the correct line then you are automatically a racist.

So in many cases there is no point in engaging in the conversation

their

and for those saying that history is badly taught, my history lessons stopped at 14. Because I chose to do geography instead.
Did that stop me learning about history, just because someone else wasn't feeding it to me? No. Because I read books. That's what they're there for.

@MaMaLa321

and for those saying that history is badly taught, my history lessons stopped at 14. Because I chose to do geography instead. Did that stop me learning about history, just because someone else wasn't feeding it to me? No. Because I read books. That's what they're there for.

But that’s great if your the type of person inclined to do so. Not everyone is.

If we have a balanced curriculum throughout school then it gives a chance for the issues to be discussed and considered - many of which a child wouldn’t be exposed to otherwise.

Haven't RTFT so sorry if this has been done to death:

but I think you have to distinguish between casual, explicit racism and institutional/societal racism. Two very different categories here:

Most white people (I'm white if relevant) would be quite happy to identify a blatantly racist act as such (for example, a white person calling a black person the N word in a pub or at a football match).

A very large amount of white people aren't comfortable talking about the much more insidious kind of racism which is the institutional variety: the inherent structural biases which prevent many black people from achieving equality, the lens through which black people are seen in white society. I think when you get into this area the answers are various. I'm not justifying any of these btw just trying to classify them according to the kinds of behaviours I've seen in many white people:

• partly that there hasn't been enough education done on the subject yet -- its still a relatively new concept to a lot of white people who haven't really read up on it and haven't been exposed to many black people
• partly that a lot of people who are small c conservative like to think that the status quo works reasonably well for everyone and don't really like having this challenged. So when someone asks them to reassess their values in this way they are naturally apprehensive and defensive
• a lot of white people of fairly limited intellectual capacity interpret this as a personal attack on them and feel they are being got at so deflect
• another significant proportion of people feel guilty and embarrassed (possibly because they were brought up to think it was not something you should talk about) and don't really want to confront this
• another group feel guilty and want to do something positive about it without really knowing where to start and are scared of discussing it with black people for fear of offending them.

I've observed all of these kinds of behaviours in white people over the years. I think things have shifted a bit but its very slow.

What I will say is that for a white person to have these conversations with a black person requires them to feel quite comfortable with that person because its a difficult thing to talk about.

A lot of white people in the UK still don't come into routine contact with enough black people to make that a likely scenario.

@Questionspandemic

Why are white people offended by black people talking about racism?

Obviously not all white people are racist and name changed - in case of gaslighting.

I’m not. I’m offended by people who say “all white people are automatically racist” though.

I don't know. I guess it's like when I mention sexism and some men get annoyed thinking I am accusing them of it?

I think it is worth telling you a story about a friend of mine (well really a colleague at work, as after I left that workplace we didn't keep in touch) a number of years ago. She went for the first time on a trip to New York, and came back raving about it, and one of her comments was, "they are so much less racist in the US than they are in the UK". And I did a bit of a double take, because, having spent a couple of years in the US, my definite impression is that the US is worse than the UK. And I looked at her, and then I said "X, it is not that New York is less racist than here, it is because in the UK you are classed as "black" and in the US you are classed as "white"". Because you see, she was/is a light skinned person from India. In the UK, that makes her "Asian", and everybody identifies her ethnic origin and puts her together with people with origins from Pakistan and Africa who are classed as "not white". In the US, they go a lot more on actual skin colour, and the divide is more linked to slavery and the history of many African Americans. And that meant that when she walked into a random shop in New York, she got treated with white privilege. Which to her felt liberating, and she assumed it was like this for everyone.
And the only reason I could figure this out, was because I had had an experience a few years previously when I met up with an African American who had travelled on holiday in Australia, and was raving about how non racist they were. Which if you know anything about the prejudices in Australia (where I grew up) seemed extraordinary, but he absolutely insisted. And for a number of years I kept trying to understand this discussion, until it dawned on me that in the parts of Australia he travelled to, the only exposure to African Americans was via American television comedies. And that if he had been Koorie (Aboriginal Australian), he would have encountered very different reactions.
The point being though, that it is really very hard to understand the dynamics of privilege unless and until you are on the receiving end of not having such privilege. Even people who has been without it all their lives can, on finding themselves in a different environment, miss the dynamic. So it is not really that surprising that people who have never had a very wide exposure just don't understand the reality.

I won't discuss it after the appalling behavior of BLM rioters in UK and USA vandalising/destroying property/abusing innocent people even OAPs trying to get on with their day shopping or eating out. Vandalising monuments makes me think what idiots they are and trouble makers! Show respect your gain respect.

@thepeopleversuswork

Haven't RTFT so sorry if this has been done to death:

but I think you have to distinguish between casual, explicit racism and institutional/societal racism. Two very different categories here:

Most white people (I'm white if relevant) would be quite happy to identify a blatantly racist act as such (for example, a white person calling a black person the N word in a pub or at a football match).

A very large amount of white people aren't comfortable talking about the much more insidious kind of racism which is the institutional variety: the inherent structural biases which prevent many black people from achieving equality, the lens through which black people are seen in white society. I think when you get into this area the answers are various. I'm not justifying any of these btw just trying to classify them according to the kinds of behaviours I've seen in many white people:

• partly that there hasn't been enough education done on the subject yet -- its still a relatively new concept to a lot of white people who haven't really read up on it and haven't been exposed to many black people
• partly that a lot of people who are small c conservative like to think that the status quo works reasonably well for everyone and don't really like having this challenged. So when someone asks them to reassess their values in this way they are naturally apprehensive and defensive
• a lot of white people of fairly limited intellectual capacity interpret this as a personal attack on them and feel they are being got at so deflect
• another significant proportion of people feel guilty and embarrassed (possibly because they were brought up to think it was not something you should talk about) and don't really want to confront this
• another group feel guilty and want to do something positive about it without really knowing where to start and are scared of discussing it with black people for fear of offending them.

I've observed all of these kinds of behaviours in white people over the years. I think things have shifted a bit but its very slow.

What I will say is that for a white person to have these conversations with a black person requires them to feel quite comfortable with that person because its a difficult thing to talk about.

A lot of white people in the UK still don't come into routine contact with enough black people to make that a likely scenario.

I think this has summed it up much better than I could!

Don't know, doesn't offend me, who is offended OP?

My ethnic mix theoretically would make me a woman of colour but I look white compared to the rest of my family and have been predominantly influenced by western white culture. I am not offended by black people talking about racism and generally don’t see it as an attack. But I am rejecting blatant anti-Semitic rhetoric by some BLM spokespeople and their ultimate political goals. I am also not going to bow to demands and pressure for my business to adopt prescribed social media messages, i.e. have a black square or otherwise be forced to signal my unquestioning support for the actual BLM organisation. Recent months have seen an almost religious zeal by some white people to flagellate themselves and proclaim their white guilt. It isn’t up to black people to appease them. However, I am also rejecting the assumption that now there should be a straight-forward reversal of ‘historic rules’ and that black people should have the automatic upper hand in all discussions. I have seen quite a bit of that on social media. Someone else mentioned that on the one hand white people apparently must show their support to the black community by standing with them and stamping it out. But then other voices demand that white people should not get involved in any protests or debates because this is not about them. I very much respect the latter. Going forward it should be up to black communities to address issues without the interference of white-knighting people with a saviour complex. That is extremely patronising. Cultural issues that affect black communities should not be used as a stick by white people in some ‘whataboutism’ (for example, black on black crime etc) but it also does not absolve black people from taking ownership of those problems.

@Wannago, quite true. In multi-ethnic societies the history and circumstances of immigration will vary and thus attitudes towards different groups will vary.

I find lumping BAME altogether in the UK a little weird. It's just a dust-bin word for everyone who is not white. I don't think Indians, Pakistanis, Africans and Caribbean Islanders have all that much in common. And they don't have much in common with Black Americans. Stretching the theoretical framework of Social Just Theory to fit them all in, in a UK context is a bit sloppy. The UK is different, and these groups all have specific and unique histories.

Some white people are offended but not all.

Many more, in my world anyway, are really lost as to what to do about things and are just trying to find a way to find their feet with this without causing any further offence or further entrenching our privilege and without losing women's needs within things. I have been wary of BLM actually being more black men's lives matter and think we need to talk more about intersectional disadvantage and how we can all victimise others without meaning to and because of the structures in our society which prevent that being overt.

It's a big problem if people are offended but I do find myself being a little offended at the assumption that I'm offended in talking about race, though given everything non-white's get put through I consider that to be my problem to get over that.

Being called racist is somehow worse than BEING racist

Perhaps this is it.

The only analogy I can immediately think of is how you feel when someone calls you a constant inveterate liar when you know that you're not. You know full well that you haven't lied to them, but they refuse to believe you. You may come from a family full of liars, but you yourself are not. You know other people are liars, but you can't stop them from lying. You've tried, but they continue.

The way you feel about being called a liar is entirely different from how a liar would feel on being caught out.

If I did or said something that was racist and somebody called me out on it, fair enough, I would thoroughly deserve it. But for people to assume that I'm racist merely because I belong to a society of mainly white people where racism exists is something else entirely.

Going forward it should be up to black communities to address issues without the interference of white-knighting people with a saviour complex. That is extremely patronising.

I so see where you're coming from here and looking at it one way this makes total sense. It makes me wonder though how white people can also express how appalled they are at direct, indirect, structural racism - all sorts. Saying 'not in my name' is not necessarily seeing yourself as a saviour and if it helped to move things forward quicker should we not? I don't see it as my role to save black people, I see it as my role to be part of dismantling the (white produced) structures which prevent people from doing that for themselves.

‘ My experience (as an educated person with relative wealth) has shown me that even white people at the bottom of the food chain have privilege as compared to poorer black people, but you can understand why they can’t see that.’

It is more complex than that.

Privilege isn’t measured individual against individual. It is group against group. So a white person at the bottom (trafficked woman or child? male rough sleeper?) isn’t really individually the one wielding white privilege. It isn’t something held equally by every white person, especially as so much of white privilege is economic and social power.

So if you are white and in a middle class profession, the likelihood is that you have taken the opportunities of a more competent person of colour. If racism didn’t exist, you might work as a packer at Amazon.

White privilege is not held in equal amounts by every individual. It is more concentrated in some white people with power and influence, and that has negative consequences for people of colour as a group.

@yellowsunrise

Being called racist is somehow worse than BEING racist

Perhaps this is it.

The only analogy I can immediately think of is how you feel when someone calls you a constant inveterate liar when you know that you're not. You know full well that you haven't lied to them, but they refuse to believe you. You may come from a family full of liars, but you yourself are not. You know other people are liars, but you can't stop them from lying. You've tried, but they continue.

The way you feel about being called a liar is entirely different from how a liar would feel on being caught out.

If I did or said something that was racist and somebody called me out on it, fair enough, I would thoroughly deserve it. But for people to assume that I'm racist merely because I belong to a society of mainly white people where racism exists is something else entirely.

No, yellow, being called racist is not worse than being racist. .

@blagaaw99

Don't know, doesn't offend me, who is offended OP?

Most people on this thread.

Why has this thread not been reported? Feels like it'a baiting.

which face daily discrimination but they don't demand a whole separate society just for them, special priority treatment and fast-tracking through positive discrimination - this is unjust and breeds racism.

I can categorically say, the discrimination my daughter experiences because of her disability, is nothing like the discrimination experienced by black people.

It is also untrue that black People are looking for special priority treatment and fast tracking - that’s something I expect for someone with a disability.

Positive discrimination isn’t really a thing and also isn’t something that is being fought for. What is needed is equal opportunity, and sometimes that means doing things differently.

I go back to, if you can’t understand that, go read some stuff.