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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what you think about a British government openly declaring that it will break international law?

385 replies

Pepperwort · 10/09/2020 19:50

This is regarding Johnson’s government’s new stated dislike of the Withdrawal agreement, which Johnson turfed May out over, negotiated, and signed.

For those not watching the news (living under rocks as it’s the top headline), the new Internal Market Bill they are presenting has a clause to the effect that any international law or court can be ignored at will. There are severe repercussions for the GFA and NI. The government have openly confirmed they will break the Withdrawal Agreement and any international law they don’t like. The EU has of course objected, and Gove has confirmed the government does not care. Not only could this scupper talks with the EU, but with the US, who have always been broadly supportive of Northern Ireland. It damages our international reputation in general and risks us being seen as a rogue state. This is beyond political posturing, just as it is beyond the old remain/ leave arguments, because we have already left. A former Tory leader and lord has spoken against it.

For voting, let’s say it’s aimed at the government. So YABU - Britain should not start its independent existence as a sovereign state by breaking laws. YANBU - go ahead, international laws are there for the breaking.

OP posts:
DateLoaf · 11/09/2020 10:55

The government is showing itself to be corrupt and stupid by not respecting international law or standing by their own legal agreements.

Fightthebear · 11/09/2020 11:07

Consequences are potentially way worse than the Supreme Court ruling against us.

EU has said they’ll take us to the ECJ. If found to have breached the Withdrawal Agreement it’ll be massive daily fines. If we don’t pay them, tariffs on our goods. Agreements have teeth. This is separate and additional to the consequences of no deal.

Lmao at EU’s measured response, they’re the grown ups to our obnoxious teenager.

MarshaBradyo · 11/09/2020 11:09

@Fightthebear

Consequences are potentially way worse than the Supreme Court ruling against us.

EU has said they’ll take us to the ECJ. If found to have breached the Withdrawal Agreement it’ll be massive daily fines. If we don’t pay them, tariffs on our goods. Agreements have teeth. This is separate and additional to the consequences of no deal.

Lmao at EU’s measured response, they’re the grown ups to our obnoxious teenager.

Interesting. I’m a bit out of the loop why does Johnson at al think that what they are doing isn’t more of a threat to us than the other side?

As a negotiating tactic that is

Fightthebear · 11/09/2020 11:11

The EU’s legal advice to the Member States has been leaked, that’s the plan.

I think it’s no deal at any cost tbh.

DoubleDolphin · 11/09/2020 11:18

I think Westminster should just carry on doing what they are doing to get brexit finished asap

Fightthebear · 11/09/2020 11:19

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-09-09/eu-sees-case-for-infringement-proceedings-against-u-k-over-bill

Can’t find the advice sorry, it was reported on Twitter. But summary here.

OchonAgusOchonO · 11/09/2020 12:43

@DoubleDolphin - I think Westminster should just carry on doing what they are doing to get brexit finished asap

Brexit has already happened. All they are currently doing is ensuing that once the transition period is over, they will have no deal with an extremely large trading partner.

DoubleDolphin · 11/09/2020 12:57

"DoubleDolphin-I think Westminster should just carry on doing what they are doing to get brexit finished asap"

"Brexit has already happened. All they are currently doing is ensuing that once the transition period is over, they will have no deal with an extremely large trading partner."
I said finished. It's not completly finished. I dont want a deal if the whole of Europe is going to take us to the cleaners. We can trade without the deal they are offering. I'd be happy with no deal I just want out for good.

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 11/09/2020 12:58

[quote Clavinova]It's not a question of not getting a good deal. It's not getting any deal.

The fact that we secured a free trade agreement with Japan this morning obviously gives up some leverage with the EU as well;

www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-international-trade[/quote]
If this is actually substantiated then we are on the right lines with Japan. Particularly as Japan is arguably (as USA is imploding for obvious reasons) the most important most advanced and high level civilised nation (excluding EU Germany, France and Italy) with the right type of cultural and business fit. They have manufactured products we appreciate and we can leverage and sell our high level professional services sectors to them. We just need a decent USA deal preferably excluding throwing in the NHS as an inducement as naturally although care homes were devastated we still need control over our healthcare system. Once we achieve big ticket trade deals with the movers and shakers of the world the best of the rest is easier to negotiate.

OchonAgusOchonO · 11/09/2020 13:02

@DoubleDolphin

"DoubleDolphin-I think Westminster should just carry on doing what they are doing to get brexit finished asap"

"Brexit has already happened. All they are currently doing is ensuing that once the transition period is over, they will have no deal with an extremely large trading partner."
I said finished. It's not completly finished. I dont want a deal if the whole of Europe is going to take us to the cleaners. We can trade without the deal they are offering. I'd be happy with no deal I just want out for good.

I'd be happy with no deal I just want out for good.

Come back and tell me that 6 months into no deal.

CrunchyNutNC · 11/09/2020 13:05

The deal with Japan is tiny compared to what we export to the EU. It is an step in the right direction but, as we're cast into the desert on 1 Jan it will take more than one step, however 'momentus' we think it is, to get us to safety.

OchonAgusOchonO · 11/09/2020 13:05

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia - We just need a decent USA deal preferably excluding throwing in the NHS as an inducement as naturally although care homes were devastated we still need control over our healthcare system.

Except the US will not sign a deal if the GFA and the NI protocol are not upheld.

Interesting that you are concerned about the NHS not being thrown under the bus but the GFA doesn't warrant a mention.

DoubleDolphin · 11/09/2020 13:10

"Come back and tell me that 6 months into no deal."

I really dont think there will be any detriment. We will probably see better stuff in the shops, more variety.

CrunchyNutNC · 11/09/2020 13:13

doubledolphin the UK is like a manufacturing or retailing business - we make/sell things things. Most countries also make thing/sell things and they use 'tarriffs' to discourage imports from other countries by making it unattractive to buy from us. A trade deal means that the UK would be able to sell things to those countries. If we don't have a trade deal with the EU it's a bit like a manufacturer or shop losing their biggest customer group - they won't have enough customers left for their business to survive.

If we don't have a deal with the EU that'll have the same impact on the UK as if a shop suddenly lost it's most important customers. Not good. And the effect is not on 'the government' - it will be on you. The businesses who sold things to the EU employ people (who might not be you), but those people spend money in shops, restaurants, nail salons, hairdressers (where you may well work).

OchonAgusOchonO · 11/09/2020 13:24

@DoubleDolphin

"Come back and tell me that 6 months into no deal."

I really dont think there will be any detriment. We will probably see better stuff in the shops, more variety.

Really? That has to one of the more deluded posts I've read in a long time.
Lifeisabeach09 · 11/09/2020 13:25

It's nuts and I have no idea what they are playing out.

CeaseAndDesist · 11/09/2020 13:33

@DoubleDolphin

"Come back and tell me that 6 months into no deal."

I really dont think there will be any detriment. We will probably see better stuff in the shops, more variety.

How, exactly?

Can you walk me through the process?

We import almost 80% of our food. How is no deal going to mean we end up with 'more and better' and 'no detriment'?

Genuinely. I am baffled by your post and I'd love for you to be correct.

Sophiafour · 11/09/2020 14:05

@Pepperwort Well, if I felt like really looking at utter short-sightedness and self-interest I could use Cameron and his fear of Farage (and whoever's behind that last individual) as an example. Though I don't think Cameron was as malevolent as Prime Minister Rasputin and his rag-tag cabinet of yes-men, headed up by Head Boy BJ and Deputy Head Girl PP.

People voted Leave in 2016 as they were sold a dream of a retro-England that never existed, all Enid Blyton and jolly hockey sticks and lashings of ginger beer. The only compelling argument I've heard any 2016 Leavers trot out is one about the EU spunking money about and awarding contracts to their mates. (Because of course that never happens in the UK.)

It's very, very rare for people to think through the logical consequences of their decisions, in my experience. And while they might be able to work them out for themselves and their nearest and dearest, I can count on the fingers of both hands the number of times I've encountered people who thoroughly think through the consequences of their actions, beyond, say, a year maximum, on others not in their racial/social/friendship group.

An analogy I often used at the time was that there wasn't enough information and evidence for me to feel happy about voting against the status quo, which was membership of the EU. It was like buying a really expensive concept car without having even seen the plans, never mind given a prototype a test drive.

If some kind of Schengen style arrangement had been mooted, I could have understood it, even though I would still have thought it was the wrong decision for the UK. But it wasn't.

There were several reasons I was on the side of remain. As as student, long before we were part of the EU, I spent time as part of my degree working in France and Germany for a while. Trying to do ANYTHING was incredibly difficult and long-winded, whether it was exchanging money or many other daily activities. (And yes, I do speak both languages. Reasonably well.)

Before I made my decision, I took a walk through a couple of local supermarkets, just for fun, to see where most of our food, particularly the fresh produce, came from. Most of it did not, and currently does not, come from within the UK. (And the south of Ireland is still part of Europe.) And what is harvested within the UK is often picked by Eastern Europeans. I took a walk round a few NHS establishments (including the one I worked at, at that time) and had a look at what nationality the nursing staff were, and many of the doctors and other specialists.

I took a look at where typical medications we might use in this household came from. Strange how many of the factories were based in, oh, Germany, for instance. Cars - where did they come from? Hardly any are still made in the UK by British companies, and the ones that are, are either high-end (Bentley, Rolls-Royce, for instance) or fall apart (I learned to drive in a Ford Fiesta).

Years ago, as a civil servant, we had a presentation from a very senior naval officer who invited us to guess how much of everything we eat, sit on, wear, and generally use, comes in through the ports.

20%, my group guessed.

Nope.

Guess again.

It was closer to 97%.

And that's 20 years ago now, long before all this climate change malarkey started and the planet's population doubled every few years, it seems. The truth is we don't produce much any more, except dodgy politicians, the service industry, and financiers, retirees, and landlords. Even our much vaunted education system is starting to look a bit green around the gills now that all those Chinese students are pretty unlikely to come here and study. (Take a walk around any large university city to see how many blocks of accommodation that's going to leave empty.) Our manufacturing base is long gone, and for what's left, some of them (especially smaller companies, I suspect) are going to get a bit of a shock when they realise how much they're going to have to pay for raw materials.

Anyone who's enjoyed COVID-19(R) - the magical, global, multiplayer virtual reality game is REALLY going to love Post-Brexit Britain.

Anyone who doesn't believe some of those of us on here who are warning that food is going to get scarcer, more expensive, lower quality, and much less varied after January 1 2021, might listen to Morrisons. They're one of the few supermarkets who produce around two thirds of their food in the UK and who still have butchers, bakers, and so on. Their warning is very clear. Get used to eating less, get used to paying more.

We've given up trying to talk to Leavers. We might as well be speaking Klingon. So we're now on the side of emigrate, before it's too late for this household. That's assuming we can find anywhere that will still let us in.

And in the meantime, we buy local, we've cut back on meat, we've managed to grow a small amount of our own food this year, and we're stocking up, quietly, on dried goods and other things we can store.

DoubleDolphin · 11/09/2020 15:19

"If we don't have a deal with the EU that'll have the same impact on the UK as if a shop suddenly lost it's most important customers. Not good. And the effect is not on 'the government' - it will be on you. The businesses who sold things to the EU employ people (who might not be you), but those people spend money in shops, restaurants, nail salons, hairdressers (where you may well work)."

Theres a reason we dont have a deal....its too costly and they were not giving us a deal good enough to have. I'm sure will cope without.

DoubleDolphin · 11/09/2020 15:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 11/09/2020 15:21

@DoubleDolphin

"but those people spend money in shops, restaurants, nail salons, hairdressers (where you may well work)."

That's incredibly rude. Should I say the same to you dear, do you work in a checkout counter?

How is that rude?
OchonAgusOchonO · 11/09/2020 15:25

Theres a reason we dont have a deal....its too costly and they were not giving us a deal good enough to have. I'm sure will cope without.

If you think a deal is too costly, a no deal plus breaking of an international treaty will be considerably more costly.

Notonthestairs · 11/09/2020 15:35

@DoubleDolphin how is the deal too costly?

LakieLady · 11/09/2020 15:39

I don't understand why there isn't widespread shock at this

I'm not shocked because my opinion of Johnson and his cronies is so low, nothing short of them adopting cannibalism could shock me.