To be white and find this offensive

[TotallyObsessed4]

Every time I see my (all White) friends they always play rap music where every other word is the N word. I really dislike that word being used regardless of context. I understand The whole claiming it back but does every other word really need to be that one.

After the millionth song and billionth use of the word, I asked if we could listen to something that wasn’t rap. When they asked why, I explained that I find the word very offensive In which they replied you can’t find it offensive as you’re white and how most black people love using that word as it’s their identity And How I’m censoring black voices which makes me slightly racist. Am I missing something here? Shouldn’t they actually research the meaning of that word. Funnily enough at the BLM protest I went to, One of the men who did the speech, who was actually black, said how they wish there was a complete ban on that word even in the black community. And then I got told off for quoting a line of that speech that used that word because I’m white.

So let me know AIBU:
YABU- yes your white, therefore you cannot be offended by racist slurs, and no you can’t use the word even if you are you quoting something (White people should only ever say “the N word” if they need to quote it).

YANBU- that word is offensive and you have every right to be offended by it and there is a difference between quoting something and using the word freely (which I would never do)

They don't own Itunes, Spotify, Amazon music though do they? And they certainly didn't own any large record companies in the heyday of this kind of rap. I don't think it's fair to dismiss the legitimate concerns of one group of black people as 'conspiracy theories' just because very few black men (and even fewer black women) have the power and influence of someone like Jay-Z @PapaPoule

I find your argument very similar to those who say how liberating the Kardashian model of being female is because she's a billionaire tbh

if you find them using it offensive then find new friends.

They aren't using it, they are just listening to rap music that includes it. The OP says they don't say it when they rap along.

This is a conflation of issues of race and class. What people think are issues of race are often in fact issues of class. A few examples:

Many BAME people that I have met don't listen to music that includes swearing of any kind, and indeed disapprove of it. Similarly, in the Caribbean most middle class people that I met (I mean middle class BAME people) disapproved of the Rasta culture. These are class and religious issues. Class issues between BAME people are just as alive and well as those between Caucasian people. However, the BIG danger of lumping all BAME people together under that one heading is that no account is made for class, which is far more important than race actually in my experience.

So, what I suspect you have here is an ancient trope, namely Caucasian middle class people appreciating an art form mostly created by BAME working class people and therefore ending up mouthing stuff that to them sounds good but that they really don't understand.

In the 1950s most Caucasian people had no idea what the lyrics of "Back Door Man", "Shake Rattle & Roll" & "Hound Dog" really meant. All were created by BAME writers and then sung by Caucasian singers. Similarly, Caucasian fans of Rap culture will happily chant along to mostly USA created texts which, outside of the harsh & brutal conditions in USA inner cities, are in fact texts removed from their original social context.

Does any of this matter? Having worked in schools in inner London, my solution when working with students is the "Granny test". They can listen to whatever they like, but when they create a track for (say) GCSE Music then my advice is "if you wouldn't play it to your granny, don't submit it for GCSE - or at the very least bleep all the Ns, MFs, Fs etc or erase them to leave a short silence". That way they can express themselves in their chosen style but they also experience the same justifiable censorship that would apply to, for example, a mainstream daytime radio station. This is why many artists produce 2 versions of a track, the original and then a 'clean' one for radio play.

I personally wouldn't ever chant along to that stuff for the same reason that if a track was full of the F word I wouldn't either, namely because it's highly likely to offend someone within earshot. We all censor ourselves in public all the time in order not to gratuitously offend others, at least I hope so.

Your friends have taken on second hand a culture that has been 'beamed in' from another place and context. The REALLY interesting question here is this - why does that music and the attitudes expressed clearly speak to them more than music created in the UK? Maybe it's viewed as a bit 'naughty', maybe they think it's exotic...or maybe they just don't understand the social context that created it.

Being optimistic for a moment, Caucasian musicians misunderstanding the Blues gave us Rock, Metal etc. Right now, there is a similar misunderstanding taking place, which may in the future produce something quite interesting.

Finally, don't forget that in fact the bands that created R&B, Motown, Stax soul etc (the writers and session musicians) were all a mix of races. Musicians are the least racist people I know, and that makes me proud to be one. Musicians resisted segregated audiences in the USA, refused to play in Apartheid South Africa etc. When musicians work together, the only issue is - can you play/sing/write? Long may that continue!

Today 03:52Mummyoflittledragon

CuntyMcBollocks

I don't think ANYBODY should be using that word whether they are black or white. If it's deemed to be so racist by a white person saying it (which it is) then it shouldn't be used so freely by some black people either. I hate the N word and find the double standards ludicrous.

Then why does you username include cunt, a word, which many many people especially women hate and find highly offensive? Can you not see the double standard?

Well said! 100%!

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

I think the question for me is why has black music moved from amazing Jazz, Blues, Motown and disco to Rap and Grime? I think that is the real racism pushed by the music industry. Instead of positive uplifting music played by people smiling or mixed bands eg The specials, it all about street music and cars, cash & women writhing. I know I’m generalising but flick through Sky music channels for while and see what I mean.

There are many black artists producing jazz and soul music but somehow Amy Winehouse and Adele end up the faces of the genre.

Esperanza Spalding, Cecile Mclorin Salvant, Lianne La Havas, Robert Glasper, Trombone Shorty...off the top of my head

@CuntyMcBollocks

I don't think ANYBODY should be using that word whether they are black or white. If it's deemed to be so racist by a white person saying it (which it is) then it shouldn't be used so freely by some black people either. I hate the N word and find the double standards ludicrous.

This!

As a white person you cant be offended by a black person using the N word. But you can dislike the music, but best in mind if theres a group of 10 people, 9 of which like the same music, and 1 who doesn't, then majority will rule.

Ritasueandbobtoo9

There are still lots of black jazz musicians. The happy jazz musicians that you will have seen from pre late 60’s will have often received much lower pay, not been able to stay in the same hotel, even Diana Ross and The Supremes the biggest female band in the world has to use different entrances to a venue they were headlining. The happy black jazz player was more palatable to a white audience the black musician who wanted to use music as a way of expressing their anger was not.

Op I don’t think you are unreasonable to not like rap music and find the word offensive. It’s not down to white people to tell black people not to use the word and your friends are wrong many black people do jot like the use of the word

Considering that it's mostly white men buying rap music and singing along to it, I do wonder who all the N words are really there to benefit. Especially when you consider that most record execs are white too.

A bit like how when women were tricked by the patriarchy to think that the sexual revolution would benefit them.

Not all Black people have claimed it. Many still find it offensive.

As do I.

It's a word that has never been used in a personal context to you, or by you (I assume). I understand that it is heavily laden with connotation but let people get on with it as they see best without being offended. It sounds to me that you are trying hard to be offended.

Why are you engaging with this person? She has nothing to say, just shut her down!

I've been raised to never ever use that word EVER it boggles me that people are starting to use it "reclaiming" it

Sometimes things are best left in the past where they belong

I don't know the answer.

Black people use it all the time in rap songs. I don't personally like rap it's full of swearing and really not my thing.

I appreciate there is some great black music but where is positive representation in the main stream media?

Why the negative portrayal?

Strangely enough a white man was invited onto stage at a concert and asked/encourage to join in the song and did - it contained a racist word which he sang along with - he was then slated for racism. It was widely publicised at the time and very odd.

@RuffleCrow

They don't own Itunes, Spotify, Amazon music though do they? And they certainly didn't own any large record companies in the heyday of this kind of rap. I don't think it's fair to dismiss the legitimate concerns of one group of black people as 'conspiracy theories' just because very few black men (and even fewer black women) have the power and influence of someone like Jay-Z *@PapaPoule*

Right. But the choices back in that day were found found their own record label, or get signed by the majors. If the majors hadn't signed them, then no doubt the same activists would work the angle that "the evil white record companies won't sign black rap artists because they are scared / racist". As it was, the 'white' record labels signed these artists, they got rich and opened their own record labels and allowed rap to hit the mainstream and for other black artists to follow, signed to "black" labels. So, should the white major labels have not signed those black artists ?

"They" might not own Itunes, Spotify etc... But Dr Dre is a billionaire from his ventures, Jay-Z too in all likelihood, then you have P-Diddy and quite a fair few others who have been able to come through. The road is not barred to black people to make money from rap music.

Remember there was a ‘fury’ on the BBC recently when two white presenters said the word on TV. People were complaining it’s offensive. As far as I can tell you can take two positions. Either the word is wrong, no matter who says it, or that the context matters. I personally don’t like the word but I understand that context does matter

Again, just because a very, very small number of people from an oppressed class get very rich from perpetuating negative stereotypes about themselves, doesn't make it a liberating choice for the majority. Not every choice a woman makes helps the liberation of women as a class, and not every choice made by a black man will help improve things for black men as a class.

@MusicMan65 really interesting and educational post for all of us on here. I am absolutely with you on the ‘granny test’. That’s the bar I set in my house, regardless of the genre of music.

My 15 year old is in a band and he plays and listens to a wide variety of music including rap, soul, indie etc. We have some great discussions about lyrics. He knows that if the lyrics contain too much talk of violence, racist slurs and especially sexist language (like the repeated use of bitch), then it’s not something that I allow to be played so that everyone can hear.

We have had a discussion about the use of the N word and also the B word and he knows as a white male, that these words are not acceptable for him to use, however if one his black friends uses the N word or female friends using the B word, then that is their choice. (I hate both words, however it is not my job to police other people using those words, only my own son). I also find the word slag incredibly offensive, so that is a word that is not used.

And i'm not sure why you've put "they" in inverted commas. I'm not black so what pronoun would you have me use?! "We"?!

Your friend's must be very young listening to rap music

To my ears it is a terrible word but if some black people feel empowered by using it then it’s not for me to say they shouldn’t or that it is wrong.

As a Jewish Brit I am aware some Jews use the word Yid amongst themselves in a similar way. To my ears it is also vile but again if some Jews feel empowered by using it, so be it.

That's an interesting point as there's an element of Jewish popular culture which is very self-deprecating and is lapped up by non-jewish audiences. For example in Saturday Night Dinner i find myself laughing and then i have to question whether i'm doing so because of shared experience that's common across many cultures or because it reinforces my stereotypes of what jewish families are like.