To feel in despair for the kids

[JudesBiggestFan]

My son was one of 400 children sent home from two bubbles in his high school today to isolate for 14 days. He's in Year 7 and it was his fourth day in his new school.
He'd been catching the bus, made a new friend, had settled in so much better than I hoped after the past few chaotic disrupted months. And now he's home again.
Not only that, he is now going to miss his cricket presentation and first two football matches of the season, not be able to see friends and family, all for the pleasure of three days of schooling.
And I can see this happening over and over and over again. Luckily childcare isnt an issue as I work from home, but I'm just so sad for kids missing out. Six months off and it seems we're back where we started with no end in sight

What other insights do you have to offer walksen? Of course it's better for old people to die than young people, and more tragic to lose a young life than one fully lived. For most of human history, death was an ever-present possibility. Now, most expect to make their eighth decade and complain the nhs was inadequate if they fail to do so.

People have sacrificed lives for lots of noble reasons. Protecting others, duty to their country, police firemen etc

We are not facing an equal choice between young people dying and old people dying. We should not sacrifice hundreds of thousands of vulnerable and older people for the sake of other's "mental health". And as you observed earlier , for all of human history death was an absolute certainty. That does not mean that the 13 years of life on average lost to covid is not important especially to their loved ones.

The sad fact of the matter is, people might be willing to sacrifice a lot for their husband/child/parents, but very few are willing to put their life on hold indefinitely to "save" people that they don't even know. If humans were that altruistic, we already would have got rid of poverty in Africa, cholera, malaria, child brides, sweatshops and animal cruelty.

@TableFlowerss ok why didn’t you allow your kids to meet friends? When did school become the sole provider of all your kids needs? This is what really irritates me!!

@AlexaShutUp

Yes, it's shit that our kids are missing out on so much, but what's the alternative? We can't just keep schools open and let the virus spread, regardless of what all of the covid deniers might think.

We also can't keep shutting the world down whenever someone contracts a virus.

But is it OK for people to sacrifice their freedoms, health, jobs, livelihoods, education, hobbies, way of living and quite likely their own future life expectancy, to save the lives of mainly 85+ year olds?

Er, yes? I think it is OK to ask kids to study at home for a short period, even if this affects their mental health, in order to save a significant number of lives.

it is OK to ask kids to study at home for a short period

What's a short period? We might not have a vaccine for years. I do not think it is OK to ask children to do this for years. They're not adults who can just work from home, their brains are developing and they need proper interaction.

Totally agree OP. I am sorry there is a virus and sorry that it shortens the life of anyone. However, the government’s only strategy is ‘wait and hope for a vaccine’. It may never come.

In the meantime, society and the lives of our young people are being ruined for a virus that does not impact them. And yes the stats are that almost all that matters is age. Any other condition pales into insignifance.

It is totally disproportionate for children to lose an education and jobs and university and future to give extra years to a small percentage of the over 70s.

@BeijingBikini that’s such a depressing view. Do you give to charity? Would you help someone in need? Why is so hard for people to amend their (in the main ) v affluent lives? I’m suggesting things like......don’t sign your kids up to after school clubs which add to transmission etc. Small things. Is that really so difficult?

@Stompythedinosaur

But is it OK for people to sacrifice their freedoms, health, jobs, livelihoods, education, hobbies, way of living and quite likely their own future life expectancy, to save the lives of mainly 85+ year olds?

Er, yes? I think it is OK to ask kids to study at home for a short period, even if this affects their mental health, in order to save a significant number of lives.

I disagree. At some point children need to be considered too.

There’s no way they should bear this brunt too disproportionately.

@Eyewhisker have you read up on the economics? You do realise if we blindly just let infections rip through schools/universities through to wider society there won’t be many jobs for your children the other side? Or has that fact passed you by?

the lives of our young people are being ruined for a virus that does not impact them
Yep tell that to the hundreds of thousands of kids who have lost a relative to this ( great-grandparents, extended family, parents and more - I’d say that has a massive impact

Oaktree changes should occur. I think the majority are making changes and have done for six months. If that includes curtailing clubs fine, they’re not happening at our school.

But one thing we should aim to achieve is dc in school.

But is it OK for people to sacrifice their freedoms, health, jobs, livelihoods, education, hobbies, way of living and quite likely their own future life expectancy, to save the lives of mainly 85+ year olds.

Not to mention all the people who have cancer, had organ transplants, diabetics, other vulnersblr conditions and all the patients who won't get treatment when hospitals are full of these apparently expendable dying people and likely quite a few doctors nurses and hospital staff treating them too.

Gosh, amazing how many armchair experts there are on here, especially as we get further into the evening . Combined experts on virology, epidemiology, medicine, economics, public health, education. My goodness with such amazing polymaths how has the human race not beaten all disease and deprivation?

Personally I will stick with the advice of people who have studied and had wide experience of their particular specialisms, not narcissistically hoovered up the nonsense on right wing websites. (A psychological study has actually shown how narcissism links with belief in conspiracy theories. My confidence equals your expertise. Makes sense). And as I have a scientist in my household who has since early March risked a two hour commute, and got Covid in the process, to devote their skills to a local testing initiative it is very apparent that this virus is something we should take seriously, why else would they have done it, they work with virologists and vaccine specialists who are also just doing their best to help their fellow humans through this. There are certain things responsible parents can easily do, along with teachers and PHE, to minimise the chance of their children having to be sent home. Wearing a mask, socially distancing, washing your hands and teaching your children to do the same. Actually no more difficult than trying to overcome the cognitive dissonance between believing a load of nonsense and the evidence of the situation the UK and globe is in.

Do you give to charity? Would you help someone in need?

Yes and yes. However, if you asked the majority of people "would you stop sending your kids to school, get made redundant, shutter your business, cancel your wedding, stop socialising, stop going on holiday, and stay at home when possible so that we can lower the rate of malaria in Africa".....they would say absolutely not. In fact this was the reason the government put out lots of scary slogans, as they realised most people wouldn't comply with lockdown for altruism alone, so they really overstated the personal risk and guilt-tripped people. This is all written in the SAGE document on the government website. Now that people are beginning to see that the personal risk to them is low - especially young people - they're giving up on the restrictions. I don't know what you want me to say, it's just reality.

At some point the penny will drop with people that everything is connected. Health, the economy, education. None operate in bubbles. You cannot have one isolated without impacting the rest. Yes education is important but there needs to be jobs and a semblance of an economy the other end of education or else our kids will be sat at home jobless.

The economy does not function without health. BANGS HEAD ON TABLE

Healthcare doesn't function without a working economy though. Without money there is no funding of life-saving research and treatments.

Oaktree do you remember Whitty and his chart - the vast majority will not get very ill - why back when. Do you think it’s right or should be updated?

Just trying to get a sense of how much impact it will have in your mind on health, if we don’t overwhelm NHS.

Showandtell1
Indeed!

The facts are:
It’s a mild illness for most
There is no vaccine and wont be for a long time if ever
We have to recover the economy
Children have to go to school
Social Distancing, masks, hand washing makes very little difference. Every single country that has reversed lockdown and introduced these measures, even the ones with amazing track and trace and draconian quarantine/isolation rules back by state police and v compliant cultures .... even those countries are seeing infection rates rise ever time they release from lockdown. They then reinforce but it just reappears again every time. All these measures do slow the spread.

So the only feasible solution is that people who are extremely vulnerable to it not being a mild illness need to be kept safe. They need to not go to work outside of the home. If their job can’t be done from home, then those of us that can work have to pay more tax so that those that can’t have state assistance to replace lost income. If they are extremely vulnerable children (or children of extremely vulnerable parents) then they need to have the highest quality remote learning. Quality remote learning that we have neither the financial nor human resource to afford for everyone but can afford for this much smaller group. State provided desk, chair, laptop, headphones, WiFi, printer and real time online learning provided by specialist teachers (those that are shielding themselves and other providers). Free guaranteed shopping delivery. Free streaming from sports events, theatre etc.

All this is affordable and doable if the rest of us get back to work, go back to shops, bars, restaurants, theatre, sport whatever to keep those people in jobs and keep those businesses afloat and generate the money to pay to keep those extremely vulnerable people safe.
Then we wait and pray that a vaccine, herd immunity or virus burn out or a combination of gets us out of this nightmare.

This is not about one life mattering more than another ...this is reality. Social distancing, masks, hand washing does not get rid of the virus ....it just slows the spread down a bit. It doesn’t work and it doesn’t make extremely vulnerable people safe.

@BeijingBikini you are a classic example of why the U.K. will be in a huge mess this winter with that attitude. As long as you’re ok then sod everyone else. Well unfortunately the harsh reality is you aren’t in a bubble the ripples from this will affect each and every one of us one way or another.

I'm not talking about me personally. EVERYONE I see in town has given up and is getting on with their lives, it's just human nature and you can call people selfish/horrible all you like, but at some point people want to continue their own lives. The schoolkids are all hanging out after school in huge groups and I don't even blame them. They've been thrown under the bus and sacrificed enough already.

"Social Distancing, masks, hand washing makes very little difference"

if this is a "fact" then how come lockdown which basically was enforced social distancing reduced deaths to a handful a day from 1500 a day at the peak?

My opinion is that you don't understand the difference between a fact and an opinion.

@MarshaBradyo I think it definitely needs updating. Look up Long Covid (debatable what this is but needs research) affects 10% of non hospitalised. At the end of the day this is new I’m neither arrogant nor ignorant enough to think I know better than the experts. They’re still learning.

I feel so anxious about this in terms of job security. 4 of my friends have been told if they have time off for childcare issues if schools close they could lose their jobs. It's going to disproportionately affect women. Again.

Healthcare doesn't function without a working economy though. Without money there is no funding of life-saving research and treatments. Had we had a working economy in lockdown the NHS would have collapsed, as it is we have a large number of doctors looking to leave the NHS because of the way the pandemic was handled, ignoring the accepted pandemic control measures that had worked elsewhere in limiting infections and keeping the economy active, and in the process putting them under extreme stress, delivering some of the worst excess deaths in the world and economic damage.

Cancer Research UK has already seen its funding reduced by 20% and yet it devoted funding to a COVID testing initiative that used their scientists' skills to get NHS staff in North London hospitals like the Royal Marsden and GOSH tested and back on the wards. Now why would that be if they didn't see the very present threat the virus represented to life-saving research and treatments .....