To feel in despair for the kids

[JudesBiggestFan]

My son was one of 400 children sent home from two bubbles in his high school today to isolate for 14 days. He's in Year 7 and it was his fourth day in his new school.
He'd been catching the bus, made a new friend, had settled in so much better than I hoped after the past few chaotic disrupted months. And now he's home again.
Not only that, he is now going to miss his cricket presentation and first two football matches of the season, not be able to see friends and family, all for the pleasure of three days of schooling.
And I can see this happening over and over and over again. Luckily childcare isnt an issue as I work from home, but I'm just so sad for kids missing out. Six months off and it seems we're back where we started with no end in sight

Anyway I’m done it’s too stressful 🤛. You realise our kids will be asked by their grandkids about the 2020 Pandemic as we probably asked ours grandparents about the War? Yet still a majority think it’s all over in a few months by September 🙄. Our generation and one before have not lived through anything major before so have nothing to base this on. Anyway done.

Had we had a working economy in lockdown the NHS would have collapsed

Evidence? I heard a lot at the time about how hospitals were cleared for a huge Italy-style influx of covid patients that didn't quite materialise. Now we have several year waits for appointments and people who will die of what were perfectly treatable conditions. The Swedish healthcare system didn't collapse and they have even less hospital beds per person than we do.

What's a short period? We might not have a vaccine for years. I do not think it is OK to ask children to do this for years. They're not adults who can just work from home, their brains are developing and they need proper interaction.

It's amazing how children's education is so sacred that we can sacrafice the lives of older people and other vulnerable people, but isn't important enough to pay more tax to improve the quality of education.

I disagree. At some point children need to be considered too.

Of course they should be considered. But what is being claimed here is that young people should not have to suffer inconvenience and unpleasant emotions even if it saves the lives of others.

I have dc too, and I want them to be happy. I dont imagine that they are entitled to happiness more than a grouo of vulnerable people are entitled to be protected from an unpleasant death.

And to be frank, we wouldn't be in this situation without a mix of poor management from the government and all the selfish arseholes who decided (and continue to decide) not to stick to the rules.

But what is being claimed here is that young people should not have to suffer inconvenience and unpleasant emotions even if it saves the lives of others.

It's not just that, though I think their mental health is important as they are developing. Their future prospects will be affected, and they will shoulder the 2 trillion pound debt of this country. If the country goes into poverty and economic depression, they will suffer the fallout. Their quality of life, health and life expectancy will suffer as a result. I don't really think that's a proportionate response to this particular virus.

@Mustfly

You have my sympathy.My kids went back to school last week including my new year 7 with SEN.I've had to keep them off for the last 2 days whilst waiting for covid test results for one of them.

It's a horrible situation to be in as my SEN child is struggling to adjust and the one who had to be tested suffers from anxiety.

@Oaktree55

At some point the penny will drop with people that everything is connected. Health, the economy, education. None operate in bubbles. You cannot have one isolated without impacting the rest. Yes education is important but there needs to be jobs and a semblance of an economy the other end of education or else our kids will be sat at home jobless.

The economy does not function without health. BANGS HEAD ON TABLE

But - without an economy we can't look after health

3rd world countries have death rates so so high because they don't have the economy to pay for health care

This VACCINE that is going to change the world needs money.

Horrible as it may appear - economy does come before health because you can't have health without the money to pay for it. No matter how idealistic you are.

On an airplane - put your own mask on first - IE without a healthy economy we can't pay for a health service.

CRITICAL THINKING

and if our kids aren't educated then we can say goodbye to having any position on the world stage in the next few years

Btw should have added the results are now back and it's negative so back to school tomorrow but I worry as several schools where I live have had lots of confirmed cases only days after kids going back to school

The economy does not function without health. BANGS HEAD ON TABLE

If say 65 MILLION people are doing ok actually ...

Just imagine if the government had spent £500 million and the past six months on online learning, sourcing more premises, more staffing for schools. Instead they spent it on giving us half price burgers

This. The government has failed to send schools back operating within the agreed best practice for schools during the coronavirus pandemic - SD, class sizes no more than 15 (which means more teachers / TAs and more space), masks etc. This requires money. The government has provided no extra money to allow for safer schools and failed our kids.

And many people over 50 end up in ICU and lots of parents are over 50, and teachers, TAs and other school staff. Not to mention those who are younger but have underlying conditions.

Staying off and quarantining is rubbish, but so is having a teacher, classmate or parent die or become seriously ill because we all got fed up and decided to just let the virus rip through the population. The impact of THAT is also life changing and long term for children.

[quote Oaktree55]@Codexdivinchi good examples of collateral damage. I get frustrated with the over simplification of the problem we are faced with. You are right there are many extended hidden casualties from this and there’s no easy answer. I personally feel that many aren’t facing up to the reality of the situation or are unwilling to alter their behaviour.

It’s all pretty shit at present. It won’t be forever and I think positives will come from it for future generations eventually. Rightly or wrongly I get annoyed by the denial by many and also very saddened by the attitude that it’s ok for some to die so other can continue their lives uninterrupted.[/quote]
I dont think most people are denying it. Most people however are realising after watching the figures that actually the deaths this virus is causing now doesn’t warrant the panicked ‘close everything down we’re all going to die’ response.

Critical thinking is indeed needed.

Rise in cases yet lowestest number of deaths and hospital admissions recorded.

Staying off and quarantining is rubbish, but so is having a teacher, classmate or parent die or become seriously ill

That is very unlikely unless the teacher/classmate/parent is elderly. What is more likely is that the parent loses their job or business, loses their house, has to queue for a food bank and then suffers a heart attack from stress, or commits suicide from having so much debt. Hundreds of thousands of lives were lost from our austerity policy, and we have a LOT more national debt to pay off now, but apparently it's OK because "it's just quarantining for a bit". I do not think completely bulldozing the economy and future prospects of young people is a proportionate measure for a virus with a survival rate of over 99.4%. It would be proportionate for some Ebola 2.0 where 50% of people drop dead, but covid is not that.

@Codexdivinchi

The economy does not function without health. BANGS HEAD ON TABLE

If say 65 MILLION people are doing ok actually ...

Even more than that were doing fine in February and March.

Then 70,000 extra people died in a matter of weeks.

Now would be a good time to look into how exponential curves work.

Because we're on one.

Again.

walksen

Because virtually everything was shut during lockdown. SD & washing hands didn’t drive cases down; lockdown worked because most of the country only came into contact with each other once a week in a supermarket aisle!

On the 10th March, we had zero deaths.

But after that, in a matter of weeks, we had thousands of deaths per day and that was WITH lockdown, it would have been many times greater without. We're at the point of potentially starting exponential growth - the case numbers are already 5-7 days (at least) behind transmission, and deaths will be a month at least behind cases.

Deaths are low now, yes. They also were low when we went into lockdown. They rose, rapidly.

France has rapidly rising cases and their deaths are the highest today since lockdown ended.... why are we going to be different? Why will it be different to last time if everyone just ignores what works?

The damage to the economy is proportional to the amount of virus circulating.

The best way to protect the economy and people's lives is to socially distance, wear masks, limit unnecessary contacts and keep the virus under control and at low levels. And that includes two weeks off school when a close contact tests positive. I agree it's shit. It's unfair, schools should have been given more money and prioritised. Unfortunately we are where we are now .

I'm one of the extremely vulnerable and am still mostly shielding especially after a discussion with my consultant today
The danger for me isn't the Covid. It's if I then get a chest infection which might go to pneumonia as I can't fight infections off. Chest infections/throat stuff is my weak point anyway

I don't know what the answer is, but I've been home since March, I've seen my parents once and not been to work, the pub, a restaurant or been shopping. I can't do this forever, I'm only 36

That is very unlikely unless the teacher/classmate/parent is elderly.

Not everyone who has died has been "elderly" so no it isn't unlikely.

What is more likely is that the parent loses their job or business, loses their house, has to queue for a food bank and then suffers a heart attack from stress, or commits suicide from having so much debt.

Why is it more likely? Have more of parents died so far due to losing their job because of lockdown than have died because of coronavirus? I don't think so.

Not everyone who has died has been "elderly" so no it isn't unlikely

That's not what "unlikely" means. If only elderly had died, instead of unlikely it would be impossible. Unlikely means the chance is relatively small. The vast majority of deaths are in older people, so in younger people it is very unlikely. For people under 40 you basically have more chance of dying in a RTC or being struck by lightning. Look at the statistics, they don't lie.

Have more of parents died so far due to losing their job because of lockdown than have died because of coronavirus? I don't think so.

Give it 10 years and that will probably be the case, though you won't be able to directly prove that all the lives lost from ill health/stress/suicide were from this, so that's why our government now don't care. By the time the economic effects on population-level health/life-expectancy rear their head, the government will be retired in the Bahamas. Covid is not the only thing out there.

Beijingbikini

There is just no logic in what you say. We did lockdown, deaths did go down Had we not locked down they wouldn’t have done.

As it was our local (big teaching hospital) treated 600 Covid patients. As with most London hospitals as London bore the brunt of the initial epidemic in early March It ran like wildfire through wards filled mostly with the elderly. Few of them made it to ICU which expanded into all but one emergency theatre and most of the patients treated there were under 60, equally represented in every age group over 20. The result especially of all those People crowding out the parks at the weekend (some of which had to close to cars and cyclists if not altogether. Most of the staff who would normally nurse elective patients were redirected to working Covid wards where patients were admitted (if they did not catch it there) only if their lips turned blue ie they were already dying. There were 40 deaths in our area of London alone at home, several after being told to stay at home by 111. They set up two refrigerated lorries in the car park which our district nurse was co-opted to transfer bodies to from the morgue, many of whom were patients who had good quality of life and decades to live. And yet unlike other hospitals like Northwick Park it never actually turned anyone away. The only ICU / hospital capacity in London was the ridiculous Nightingale hospital which proved you could build and equip a field hospital in the East End but you could not staff it, or devise and train up what staff you had in all the necessary protocols. Staff did not volunteer in the numbers needed preferring to stay in their own established hospitals where they could be more effective. And this last winter if you look at the ONS excess deaths figures was a light year for flu with fewer deaths than the five year average so they were not already under as much pressure.

I was actually with a Consultant today who is sure the second wave is just starting and will start to feed through into the hospital just as the winter flu hits. He was commenting that the majority of his peers are considering leaving the NHS because the lessons have not been learnt.

I don’t know where in the country you are but if the epidemic peaked after lockdown it was already coming under control. As the epidemiologist in Bradford BRI commented he fully expects that the cases the young are picking up in school, at weddings etc will translate into pressure on his wards in the coming weeks

Look around the world, the countries who keep their economies open with no measures of infection control lead the world on infections and deaths. The countries that acted quickly to prevent infections protected their economies. Never mind Sweden which has fared far worse than its neighbours. Taiwan with several flights a day from Wuhan started boarding flights in December to screen passengers and implemented testing tracking and tracing and effective quarantine in January. 495 cases, 7 deaths in a country of 25m and their economy has continued to grow.

Sorry but give me evidence and logic, not confidence in your own perceptions / opinions

[quote Oaktree55]@TableFlowerss ok why didn’t you allow your kids to meet friends? When did school become the sole provider of all your kids needs? This is what really irritates me!![/quote]
Ermmm because they weren’t allowed to mix households and meet friends of course!

School is not the sole provider of my children’s needs buts it does provide a very important foundation and an education.

An education that no other generation have had to cease for 6 full months!! And looks like that’s just the start!!!!

Look around the world, the countries who keep their economies open with no measures of infection control lead the world on infections and deaths. The countries that acted quickly to prevent infections protected their economies. Never mind Sweden which has fared far worse than its neighbours

I don't think this is true at all, in fact I've seen statistics showing the opposite. Sweden has suffered a much smaller drop in their economy compared to us, and now their infection rate is doing down daily while ours is going up. Countries like Belarus, Turkmenistan and Japan have not done badly at all or had swamped hospitals, and they didn't lock down. The countries doing badly now are the ones that had strict lockdowns. Sweden is getting on with their lives while we have years of lockdown-lite and trashed economy ahead of us.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-lockdown-death-rates-us-study-a9635891.html

Ermmm because they weren’t allowed to mix households and meet friends of course!

I swear people on MN are deluded. They all claim their kids haven't seen anyone for months, yet I've seen teenagers hanging out in groups all summer.

Even if it were true that for people under 40 the risk is low (I'm not sure that's true when you consider disability from covid, which affects ability to work), a large number of secondary school pupils have a parent/ parents over 40 (and many in primary too).

Also, we are allowed to meet friends and mix households, as long as you socially distance.

@Cloudtraffic

the lives of our young people are being ruined for a virus that does not impact them Yep tell that to the hundreds of thousands of kids who have lost a relative to this ( great-grandparents, extended family, parents and more - I’d say that has a massive impact

People lose loved ones all the time. One of my grandparents died when I was 5, the other 11.

Looks like there’ll be more deaths associated with people not being able to access other healthcare because of covid...